This episode features audio engineer Kevin McCoy, who most recently spent the last five years with the And Peggy company of Hamilton as their Head of Audio. Prior to that, he was on the road touring with many theatrical productions for his entire career. Kevin is warm and welcoming, thoughtful, smart and kind. What he does is complicated, important, and very impressive.
Find Kevin!
https://www.kevin-mccoy.com/
Theme music written by Rachel Dean and orchestrated by Katie Coleman
Audio engineer Mike Rukstad
Special thanks to the following folks from the SIX Boleyn Company for lending their voices to the intro:
Mike Rukstad
Dylan Dineen
Sarah Ortiz
Jane Cardona
Kaitlin Ciccarelli
Kami Lujan
Jillian Bartels
Find us!
on IG @howtosucceedintheater
https://howtosucceedintheater.buzzsprout.com
Patreon
This episode features audio engineer Kevin McCoy, who most recently spent the last five years with the And Peggy company of Hamilton as their Head of Audio. Prior to that, he was on the road touring with many theatrical productions for his entire career. Kevin is warm and welcoming, thoughtful, smart and kind. What he does is complicated, important, and very impressive.
Find Kevin!
https://www.kevin-mccoy.com/
Theme music written by Rachel Dean and orchestrated by Katie Coleman
Audio engineer Mike Rukstad
Special thanks to the following folks from the SIX Boleyn Company for lending their voices to the intro:
Mike Rukstad
Dylan Dineen
Sarah Ortiz
Jane Cardona
Kaitlin Ciccarelli
Kami Lujan
Jillian Bartels
Find us!
on IG @howtosucceedintheater
https://howtosucceedintheater.buzzsprout.com
Patreon
03:06.81
howtosucceed
I'm most interested in your path to where you are now and because I think that with. People who are work on the tech side. The how they got There is always really interesting because like with musicians it's like okay you can go to school for music or like acting but like you you can't You can't really study like sound in high school or maybe like college I guess you can but I don't like.
03:29.10
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Sure yeah.
03:43.70
howtosucceed
So tell me about like all of that that simple question.
03:48.61
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Sure, Um, yeah, ah, there definitely are like a ton of different paths and that's one of the things I talk about when I when I when I chat with um students is just like I'll I'll tell you what my path was but like there's a lot of paths for technicians.
04:01.70
howtosucceed
Yeah.
04:04.70
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
And 1 of them very much is just like you go to school and you study the thing and you get out of college and you work wherever like that is that is a path that exists. Um, but I I think it did I just didn't know about it because it's and it's a path that's more obvious when you're sort of on the East Coast um
04:08.50
howtosucceed
Um, right did that exist when you were in school.
04:20.39
howtosucceed
Oh yeah, okay.
04:22.91
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
It's not as obvious ah you know, especially when I was you know and when I was in high school. The internet was in its in its use. Um, yeah, so it didn't really have like the resources of like messaging people that wanted to work in theater and like finding out. Oh yeah, you can go to college for this.
04:28.79
howtosucceed
Was new. Wow.
04:39.40
howtosucceed
Yeah, ah.
04:41.42
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, I also was um, sort of a notoriously bad student. So um I didn't really want to go to school but it seemed like that was what you had to do so um when I was in ah, middle school or Junior high as others might call it but we called it middle school.
04:56.78
howtosucceed
Um, ah yeah, same middle school.
05:01.91
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, oh great. Yeah, because we were ah middle school was an experiment back then because it was 6 to 9 instead of ah um, oh yeah, yes, but all all an experiment they were you know on the forefront of education. Yeah, perfect. Um.
05:06.28
howtosucceed
Um, yeah, oh mine was 6 to 8 Yeah, ah and we know how we turned out. So.
05:20.59
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Ah I I go all the way back to middle school because I feel like this was my first um like discovery of what it means to produce entertainment I was a student a friend of my best friend and I were in charge of running the timing system for the swim team.
05:28.96
howtosucceed
Um, yeah.
05:40.10
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
At the at the the district swimming pool was at the middle school so we would go over there after classes and put the little timer pads in the water and run the wires all around and tape them down nice and neat and then um, run run them up to like the broadcast booth where we had this 80 s.
05:41.97
howtosucceed
Oh my gosh.
05:50.34
howtosucceed
Of.
05:57.77
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
I mean this was the 90 s but the technology was very much from the 80 s the the technology to um, run the timing system and we would run the timing system and like provide all the information and it was super fun and it showed me what it was like to be. You know that's not a show but it's a show and so like um.
05:59.58
howtosucceed
Oh.
06:12.54
howtosucceed
Yeah, ah.
06:14.92
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
I think back to that is like very much my first my first like understanding of what that means? um.
06:18.92
howtosucceed
Right? That's a really important job too. But I I that kind of thing has always been fun for me to to be like a very integral part of something but not like in the spotlight like in the background people don't know. Yeah.
06:30.48
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
So much for so much for me to like I don't even like want to go to like like club like I don't I don't like go into the bar unless I like I have a thing to do like Well I'll go I'll go see my friends at a concert but only if I can like take photos or something. Um.
06:41.54
howtosucceed
Yeah, ah yeah, my safes safe place is like behind the piano I'm like I'll just sit here. It's fine. You guys go talk in the corner I'll sit here. Yeah yeah.
06:50.45
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, right I feel that I definitely feel that um yeah, so so ah, people there like you know because that was for the whole district people are like oh when you get to your high school. You should go work in this theater. Um.
07:05.50
howtosucceed
Wow.
07:07.35
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Doing because you know they saw that they saw the the similarities and the skills and obviously ah like I was a nerd right? like it was clear that I was a nerd. So yeah, obviously um and I was also interested in in um music I was I did choir a lot in middle school. So then I got to high school.
07:12.58
howtosucceed
Obviously.
07:22.17
howtosucceed
Nice.
07:25.74
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, and the first thing I did ah so this is tenth grade. The first thing I did was I went to um, the theater and so the theater was attached and part of the high school like physically part but it was run completely separately like the um they had their own sort of show schedule. They would bring in touring shows. They had their own staff.
07:41.42
howtosucceed
Um, how cool.
07:44.89
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, when we didn't have a drama department at the school. So if I wanted to do a theater. It was all just like through this theater organization and it was definitely not professional. No it. It was a community theater. Yeah yeah, just not.
07:47.16
howtosucceed
Wow So is I professional theater. Okay, but community. That's cool though. That's still like a step up from high school. Yeah.
08:02.48
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, it was like a step up from the school auditorium. Although it was still used as a school auditorium. Yeah, um so I went over there and I was like hey you know I heard that I should come over here and look for for something to do and at that time they hired students to work. Um, as the the stage technicians.
08:06.98
howtosucceed
Got it.
08:13.42
howtosucceed
Um, wow.
08:19.63
howtosucceed
Um, did you get paid hello. That's great.
08:21.57
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
So I yeah it was like a real job. Yeah, um, yeah, it was and like I definitely ah was um, bending some rules that I should like I I would misclass all the time to go to shows. Ah, um, yeah, you know? Ah, but it worked great and I um did.
08:31.67
howtosucceed
Um, ah well.
08:41.56
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
I did theater and so as soon as I got there? Well I guess when I I got there they didn't have ah um, a technical director yet but a few months later they hired a technical director and he got there and he came in and sort of like organized everything because it was a little bit a little bit of a mess before that. Not really a mess but it just like wasn't wasn't well organized yet.
08:59.10
howtosucceed
Yeah.
09:01.33
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, there was some transitions and so in personnel. So um, he came in and he had a degree in lighting design and um, he was also really good at scenic construction but he knew nothing about sound and so he sort of pointed at.
09:06.59
howtosucceed
Okay.
09:16.53
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Corner of the booth that had the soundboard and like a pile of manuals for all the equipment and said someone needs to figure that out and it's not going to be me. Ah and I was like I'll figure that out and so I did and like I read all the manuals and um, you know he gave me the the space to play with the gear because.
09:19.30
howtosucceed
Oh my God oh.
09:26.52
howtosucceed
Wow.
09:35.83
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
That's one of the things too about school theaters is that sometimes you'll have adults who are in charge of the space who are afraid of letting students play with the play with the year because you know they might break it or they might or maybe the adults don't know enough about the cure to configure it reconfigure it if the students screw it up so it was pretty remarkable to have that space to just.
09:42.51
howtosucceed
Um, right.
09:54.20
howtosucceed
Um, that's so cool.
09:55.90
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Play with it and he was like yeah you want to set up this 4 track tape recorder to try singing an acapella number with yourself. Sure go ahead. Ah okay, please yeah ah well I guess um.
10:02.49
howtosucceed
Um, okay I have so many questions. Sorry let me stop you? Okay, how old were you at this point.
10:14.11
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Think Tenth grade is like 15 141516 somewhere in there. Oh this is Northern Minnesota grand Rapids Minnesota a small town. The school itself is about I think was it 300 people per grade so like it was like.
10:14.16
howtosucceed
Okay, and where in the country was this okay and.
10:29.49
howtosucceed
Oh wow and then what like you said the internet was not a thing back then but like what sort of technology because I think where I'm going with this is that nowadays if you have a 15 year old they probably know everything about computers.
10:32.73
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
1200 people yeah it was a lot of people.
10:48.41
howtosucceed
They can figure out tech so easily. But but back then these old days. Um, you know it's ah it's different to like hand a fifteen year old this like a manual so what? like tech experience like what had you tinkered with.
10:59.31
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, so.
11:06.95
howtosucceed
At that point.
11:07.23
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, yeah, that's a good question I mean I I had taken some there were some computer classes in my middle school. Um, and I had like I had a kind of some sort of a computer at home. At one point it was like a commodore 16 and then I think later it was like an Apple two gs like I had you know.
11:19.22
howtosucceed
Ah, nice. Yeah, but that was totally different from the soundboard right apart? yeah.
11:24.68
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, so I had like yes, very true. Yeah, there was no like technological crossover there. Um I think I Well and I think and this is something I talk about even now that like the the aspects of technology that we need to Understand. Um, as Technicians stage technicians especially in sound but also in lighting and just everywhere excuse me. Um, is like signal flow and um, like how to discover parts of the system. So it's not about like knowing oh yeah, like I've read the manual for this board. So I know exactly how it works. It's more about oh I you've given me this board. Okay, well you know every sound board has to do Xy and z so let me figure out how this board does x. And then okay, so then the flow goes from there to from x to y and that was like the biggest thing that I discovered back then was like understanding, not exactly what that board did but understanding that you know so technology and systems of technology are logical. Put together by humans and they they follow rules. Um, and and so understanding how those things go together and how you can learn them is more valuable than like you know I've never used that same that light but that that soundboard was ah you know was a.
12:44.78
howtosucceed
Um, Wow Yeah sure yeah, not helpful, but that sounds so great and like.
12:53.76
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
It was an analog 32 channel board it was I'll never see it again. Yeah, but yeah.
13:01.29
howtosucceed
So probably so much more interesting to you than what you were actually learning in school.
13:03.57
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Oh yeah, definitely I was doing a lot of choir in school which I really loved. Um and I think that helped me as a sound person to Bo Choir and Band I did um I sang in several choirs and I played in Band and the marching band. So I played the tuba.
13:07.38
howtosucceed
Nice, Yeah yeah.
13:16.83
howtosucceed
What instrument did you play? Yeah yes, awesome. That's great I Don't think I knew that about you fun. Um I play the Trumpet I don't know if you knew that about me. Yeah it times. Okay, so.
13:21.87
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, it was great. Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah, that's right I I did know that? Yeah yeah, yeah.
13:34.78
howtosucceed
That sounds like such an incredible opportunity. So then did you start running sound for the shows there.
13:40.12
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
I mean I did all the things I did sound and lights and scenic construction and you know there are basically like 3 or 4 of us who sort of did most of the work there. Um, and it was great. You know I like I learned how shows worked and.
13:48.46
howtosucceed
Yeah.
13:56.65
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, the technical director there. His name is John Miller he's still there I just saw him the other day. Um, ah he was very much. He was very cool about giving us the freedom to to do things. That's another thing I talk about when I when I'm talking with students is that the best thing you can get in.
13:58.75
howtosucceed
Well.
14:06.51
howtosucceed
Yeah.
14:14.40
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Ah, school environment or you know before you start your career is finding a place where you can safely fail at things. Um, so that like that's the biggest thing that College provides more than an actual education is a place to safely fail to just try things and yeah.
14:20.69
howtosucceed
Um, yeah, was it.
14:28.74
howtosucceed
I Love that so much. That's so important.
14:34.30
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, it was. It was great. It worked out great. Um, and I did that through high school and that really solidified the idea that I wanted to work in theater. Probably I don't know I was never really clear on what I wanted to do? Yeah yeah.
14:44.68
howtosucceed
Yeah, or like productions of some sort did you um, were you a fan of like musical theater with yeah okay.
14:54.41
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
And I was not I wasn't I wasn't not a fan I just wasn't a fan. Um I just didn't have a lot of exposure I Guess to it you know that we didn't have touring shows. Um, we didn't have big touring shows coming through. We did have occasional like small tours come through.
15:03.80
howtosucceed
Yeah, right.
15:11.37
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
But mostly like kid shows and stuff. Um, the bigger shows would go to Minneapolis and that was a 4 hour drive away. So I just never went down there. Um I never went to New York oh very much. So yeah I love it. Yeah.
15:15.43
howtosucceed
Oh My gosh. Yeah and are you a fan of musical theater Now. It's that's good to hear. Ah um, okay, and that so you so then did you go to college for. Okay.
15:32.44
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
So I did I went to a so a state school in central minnesota for a year um ah I did mostly acting there. Um I was also like I was on a technical track but that school just kind of required you to do both? Um and I loved it. Yeah.
15:46.20
howtosucceed
Wow. Did you like that cool say ah ah.
15:49.86
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, it was great in high school I had acted too I was um I was Charlie Brown in youre good man Charlie Brown in my junior year I think and then in college I was sancho panza in in man of luantia. Um, yeah, it was great. Um, yeah was always um, sort of you know like I had.
15:59.35
howtosucceed
Oh my God That's great.
16:09.41
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
I was I was able to be extroverted when I needed to be and so I I would use that to my advantage sometimes um so I just went but I went to school just for a year. It wasn't really my thing like I said I was not a great student. Um, and ah, um.
16:15.12
howtosucceed
Um, yeah, interesting.
16:23.20
howtosucceed
Yeah, ah.
16:26.83
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
But the school had a summerock theater so I went to that summer stock theater and also acted there. Um, but ah sort of got the attention I did some sound stuff and that got the attention of a Minneapolis -based theater producer.
16:39.57
howtosucceed
Ah, okay, oh my gosh I Think that's really a great thing to know because especially for like you say students people who are in their in their college.
16:41.36
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
And he connected me with his production manager and I moved to Minneapolis and started working there. So.
16:55.12
howtosucceed
Age They think that like school is the most important thing in their life and it is very important. Don't get me wrong, but like I was thinking I can't even remember the last time that anyone asked about my college degree like I don't know if anyone is.
16:59.59
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Right? right.
17:10.27
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, yeah.
17:14.19
howtosucceed
Ever. Anybody who hired who has hired me for a professional theater theater Gig I don't think they've ever asked me about my college degree right? It hasn't been in your way. Yeah, yeah, that's yeah.
17:21.87
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah I I mean I don't have one So No one has ever asked me about it or am I lack of um, the only I will I will say the only time it has ever come up was um, over the Pandemic. So ah, some people approach me about an open. Professor position at ah at a conservatory and they're like oh and they sent me the requirements and I said oh it says it requires a master's degree and I don't even have an undergraduate and they're like oh well we can waive that requirement based on your experience. Um, yeah, um I didn't take it I had a good job that I was happy to go back to. But.
17:41.37
howtosucceed
Um, yeah, yeah, like yeah, my gosh that's great. Yeah.
17:58.63
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, so.
17:58.64
howtosucceed
But you're right about college being important for a place to safely fail I think it's also really important for contact making as as was your case you met the person that you needed to meet early on and so I definitely don't want to discourage people from going to college but like it's not the end I'll be all there is.
18:05.10
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yes, yes.
18:13.14
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Right? Yeah yeah I have some friends who are sort of a little bit more tapped into that that sort of like college or not college question and one of them has really good advice which I I sort of Echo which is just that like.
18:18.36
howtosucceed
You know experience Pounce equally.
18:31.85
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
If you can go to college basically for free or without taking on very much debt then that's probably a good idea. But like if you're looking at taking on a huge amount of student debt to go to whatever x college of your dreams for Broadway but it's probably not a good idea or probably better off just figuring out how to do it like either to not go to.
18:50.83
howtosucceed
Was working. Yeah yeah, that's good advice. That's really good advice. Um I'm going to fast forward to so you were head of audio for Hamilton national tour for many years is that right is that the right.
18:51.11
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
That college or to just start working. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:07.62
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, yeah of of the of the npeggy tour. Yeah yeah, yeah.
19:07.98
howtosucceed
Job description. Yes, that one? Um I think one of the I think that that job in particular is unique and more challenging than others because you're setting up the sound. In a different house like every month which is very different from like a broadway theater where you set it up once and that space doesn't change um or like. For example, if you're building this set. Over and over and over again. It's the same set that the size of the set doesn't doesn't change although I guess the specs of the theater do change and impact that but I think that that's a really unique challenge. Um, can you speak to that a little bit.
19:55.42
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
So yeah, yeah for sure. Um, yeah I mean I will also say that actually Hamilton um was probably the least challenging in that aspect for the head of audio because um, we traveled with ah.
20:11.62
howtosucceed
Oh right? did that for you? Yeah, what is can you? Yeah can you tell me what the advance crew does versus then what do you do? so like what is it like moving into a new theater.
20:12.43
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Advance crew who actually came out and dealt with a lot of that stuff. Um, ah which isn't to say that it wasn't a challenge sorry Sagan.
20:26.00
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
And yeah, yeah, well for Hamilton Specifically ah the um, there's the on the touring sound side. We have the head audio and the assistant audio who travel with the show all the time. And then we have a head advance and an assistant advance who come in just for the load ins when we're setting up in the theater. Um, and usually the head advance is responsible is in charge of the of the setup in charge of the load in. So um, they're in charge of deciding where the speaker towers go and um. How we're going to tune the system to match the acoustics of the room. Um, they're there a day before the touring crew the head ah advance and the assistant advance are there on usually Sunday while the crew comes in on Monday because on that Sunday usually the touring crew is in the previous city.
21:07.30
howtosucceed
Um, and.
21:12.20
howtosucceed
Okay.
21:18.63
howtosucceed
So would it be the case that on that Sunday another show is loading out.
21:20.93
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um.
21:26.37
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Ah, well yeah of the same thing like usually on that Sunday Hamilton will be loading out of one city while the advance crew is loading into the next city.
21:30.46
howtosucceed
Right? right? Low so the next city though would there be another show that's leaving they wouldn't book like I see so they allow like a week in between.
21:39.26
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Oh usually they wouldn't book they they wouldn't have booked the theater for that day or if there was yeah or like they might have had 1 offs that week so that they might have like you know, comedy shows or whatever if there was another.
21:49.64
howtosucceed
God So they come into like an empty space. Well I see.
21:55.57
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, it would be an empty space exactly if there was another show there. They would have to move it to Monday so they would do the advance on Monday we would do the load in on Tuesday and then not open until Wednesday. Um, yeah, yeah, you wouldn't you wouldn't ever really do that one time I think we did it over the top of like a wedding in the lobby and that was a.
22:03.97
howtosucceed
Okay, now.
22:11.88
howtosucceed
Oh it was already hard enough. Got it? Yeah interesting.
22:14.22
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Pretty big deal as it was so yeah, they tried to have yeah yeah, um so the head advances in charge of um, you know, just everything basically like figuring out where the speakers are going figuring out the cable paths. Um Hamilton traveled with a bunch of surround speakers that went around the back of the theater. So they would figure out where to put all those ah a lot. Um the assistant advance also would participate in all those things but also ah their main job during the second day was to build the pit to to set up all the equipment in the pit. Um, and this is of course. So.
22:35.30
howtosucceed
Well.
22:44.95
howtosucceed
Oh okay.
22:51.16
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
These are all the people who work directly for Hamilton this is also the bulk of the work is done by local crew who are you know? ah union hands in in every city that we go to and um for the audio department we would have 12 for the audio department. Um, yeah, yeah.
22:52.32
howtosucceed
Yeah.
22:59.27
howtosucceed
There. Ah so how many people? Yeah how many people is that wow that's 12 locals and then the 4 Hamilton people that's a lot.
23:10.80
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, right? Yeah, exactly exactly? Yeah um and um, also on the other end the Sunday while the advanced people are in the next city on the load out of the previous city. It's the 2 touring people but also. There's a load out advanced person who comes to help take down stuff on the load out. Yeah, so.
23:29.87
howtosucceed
Oh my God and you guys how many trucks were sound equipment.
23:37.81
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Ah, sound was we had 1 truck that was entirely sound and then we had a little bit of stuff on another truck and then we also had what we called the ad mans gear which was stuff that was duplicated so we could leapfrog to have some gear and because you know on the sunday.
23:49.21
howtosucceed
Um, oh no, yeah, right? My much half it's fascinating. Yeah.
23:55.28
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
We still had gear in the last city so they had to have gear in the next city. So we had leapfrog stuff so we had half a truck of that leapfrog stuff too. Um, that's like cables and rigging and stuff. Yeah, yeah, um, so the biggest thing ah you know, ah that that meant for me as I had audio was that the. Head advance tuned the room they would set up the speakers and they would walk around the room with their tablet ah listening to music or listening to pink noise um or using software ah pink noises um sort of sounds like static. It's it's ah um, it's like a sort of a.
24:21.32
howtosucceed
Yeah,, what's pink toys. Okay.
24:31.61
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Ah, specifically calibrated static that allows us to um, get a sense of what the speakers are doing in the room.
24:37.19
howtosucceed
So that's so you can walk by a speaker and you know that it's on because it's making this sound but.
24:42.70
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yes, but also you can set up microphones that analyze how that pink noise is coming out of the speakers and it tells you how the room has affected the sound because you know what the sound you're putting into the speaker is and then you put a microphone. Out in the middle of the house and it tells you what has happened to the sound in between the 2 you compare you compare the 2 sounds. Yeah, it's very fancy. Um Hamilton also had ah some fancy speakers. Um, the speakers that we.
25:09.48
howtosucceed
Now it's crazy. You're blowing my mind Dear Okay, ah.
25:21.16
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
That we put up on each side of the stage in towers um were computer controlled and ah in a way that most tours don't ever use and we could sort of aim them using computers. Um, and that that.
25:33.67
howtosucceed
Oh kind of like lights how you can Oh I see.
25:38.92
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, except they didn't physically move. They used very complicated math to sort of change the way they created the sound that allowed it to to change how the sound moved it's it's yeah.
25:49.34
howtosucceed
Okay, great I'll take your word for this? yeah.
25:56.35
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
It's It's very cool. Ah, but it's a little complicated but um, yeah, it's sort of like yeah ah but basically that allowed us to sort of ah tune the room and aim at specific spots in the room ah aim sound at specific spots in the room. Ah, and.
26:11.42
howtosucceed
Okay.
26:14.48
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, at different volumes and deal with different sort of weirdness in the room and um, all of that was the the domain of the head advance. Um, which was great because um, you know on most tours the head audio does all of that they're they're in charge of all of that.
26:17.33
howtosucceed
What.
26:33.10
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, usually also on those tours the head audio doesn't have to deal with those fancy speakers. Those fancy speakers are very cool and very handy but they take ah like more time to sort of really give the attention they need right.
26:35.89
howtosucceed
Right. Yeah, so Hamilton was like bigger and more complicated than most but like how much bigger and more complicated than your average I guess they're all different.
26:54.73
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Ah, yeah I mean well so just you know to to compare like um, a lot of shows these days are between like 4 and 8 trucks and Hamilton was 13 um and.
27:07.29
howtosucceed
Oh my god.
27:11.30
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Most of the time the crew the local crew we would get for audio would be either. Ah I think on the smaller shows we had four local crew and sometimes we had 6 local crew and Hamilton had 12 Um, yeah, those are sort of the you know the the big and like I said you know that um we had.
27:18.34
howtosucceed
Okay, yeah.
27:29.90
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Basically 5 touring people the 2 touring people and then the 3 advanced people for Hamilton whereas ah for most shows you just have the 2 touring people. There's there's no advanced people. Um so lots of lots of little yeah I have I have that's right.
27:34.96
howtosucceed
Ah.
27:39.37
howtosucceed
Ah, then you've done you've done all of that so you know what it's like you didn't just get to Hamilton without having to do all those other jobs.
27:49.30
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, that's right I Definitely I worked a lot on kids shows and did one night ers and um, you know did yeah, all all the things. Um, yeah, but I mean you're you're so right that like that that adjusting to the room was often the biggest challenge. Ah, and um, you know.
27:54.00
howtosucceed
Well my gosh Yeah um now.
28:03.81
howtosucceed
Yeah, so.
28:07.88
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Also just sort of like working with the cast to um to help them understand why why things were going to change for them all the time. Um, and you know that's a lot of I think a lot of audio people especially theater Audio people will tell you that the psychology of.
28:15.35
howtosucceed
Totally.
28:25.93
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Addressing. Everyone's needs and everyone's wants and hopes and dreams. Um, ah is kind of the biggest challenge of all of the stuff. All the technology is fine and whatever but just making everyone happy or dealing with the fact that sometimes people aren't going to be happy.
28:26.37
howtosucceed
Right.
28:36.81
howtosucceed
Yeah, oh my goodness.
28:42.98
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Is maybe the worst part sometimes or the hardest part or.
28:45.79
howtosucceed
Yeah, that's really interesting like um for 6 the cast is wearing in your monitors. So the room I would think impacts what they hear less but can you speak to how like how do things change for the cast.
28:55.29
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, yeah.
29:03.40
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah I mean ah yeah, ah you know in your monitors is definitely a thing. It's It's a big topic amongst in in theater sound. Um, and.
29:03.49
howtosucceed
And different venues.
29:14.15
howtosucceed
I Don't even know if the cast likes them. They're they're like constantly taking them out for for some songs putting them in like it's yeah I can see that it's controversial.
29:18.52
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:24.30
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
yeah yeah I haven't I don't think I know anyone in the cast of 6 so I haven't really spoken. No I would imagine that for them. They like the um they like the option and I think a lot of a lot of cast like having that option. Um, but ah in ears for whatever reason.
29:33.16
howtosucceed
Um, yes.
29:41.48
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, haven't really been widely used on Broadway ah, ah in in in broadway tours. Um, maybe more and more so now it is um I I know there's some in Hades town too and and 6 like you said and um and ah I'm sure there's more in other shows I'm just not sort of aware of um.
29:50.90
howtosucceed
Oh okay. Yeah, depending on and like they're used for different reasons I mean the the music director does countoffs into them. So It's not always for you know their own vocal needs. Yeah.
30:01.30
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
But yeah, right, monitoring? Yeah yeah, yeah, totally um, but basically the challenge the big the you know sort of the underlying thing is um, singers often would like to hear themselves. Returned back to themselves more than we're able to um the speakers that on stage that we use to ah so we point speakers at the stage and we call them fold back speakers because it allows us to fold the sound back to the stage or sometimes we'll call them monitors and um.
30:21.37
howtosucceed
Yeah.
30:36.79
howtosucceed
You know.
30:40.55
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Usually like 1 of their big jobs is to allow the cast on stage to hear ah pitch and yeah yeah pitch and rhythm cues so that they can hear the piano or they can hear the drums or or you know whatever sort of.
30:46.80
howtosucceed
Everything.
30:56.79
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Between the sound department and the cast and the music department they decide is necessary. Um, but the thing is that they're wearing microphones that if the microphones pick up that sound the microphones amplify that sound and that's how you get feedback so you can't really put the microphones themselves into those monitors because that would create feedback.
30:59.23
howtosucceed
And. Right? yeah.
31:12.30
howtosucceed
Oh I've never thought about this in that way like when I've been played in like cover bands and stuff the monitor's all like oh like I want to hear myself singing like it's so that you can sing in tune with the people around you but I never thought about like when you have a huge cast of 20 something people you can't.
31:14.72
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Ah, so they can't.
31:30.40
howtosucceed
Put everyone in there so they can hear themselves. There's no way.
31:32.14
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Right? right? And also when you're singing in a band're. You know you have a microphone in front of you that microphone is directional. So it's pointed. It's only getting sound from you know, straight in front of it whereas the microphones that the cast is wearing are omni directional so they pick up sound everywhere. Um, which is.
31:40.00
howtosucceed
Um, and not then sort of yeah oh ah.
31:48.80
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Which makes them sound good and also makes it easier for us to hide them better. Um, and but it means that you can't put the sound back on the stage. Um, and so that you know so some some performers ah are ah sort of adjust to that better than others.
31:51.68
howtosucceed
But yeah, you can't oh my god.
32:08.27
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, and and that sort of leads to that's the that's the crux of it is just like you know if performers want to hear themselves. So if if performers want to hear themselves all they get to hear of themselves back in a situation like that is basically their their voice bouncing from the house back to the stage.
32:25.58
howtosucceed
Wow Oh my God So oftentimes they can't hear themselves at all.
32:27.21
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
After it's come out of the main Pa the main speakers. Um, So yeah I mean I think that it's pretty rare that they wouldn't be able to hear themselves at all. But it's.. It's always going to be.. It's gonna vary. That's the biggest thing is it's going to vary all the time because the acoustics of every house are going to be different. Um and you're and you're going to get different reflections and you know we even got to the point where um, actually I have um I have this device. It's sitting next to me that it it's It's a it Shows. Um.
32:41.50
howtosucceed
Yeah.
32:48.91
howtosucceed
Um, now.
32:56.91
howtosucceed
Um.
32:58.70
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Temperature and humidity. Um, and I kept this out front ah with me next to me because Humidity is a huge factor for how Um how sound travels through air and it got to the point where I could tell oh the humidity is really high today.
33:10.74
howtosucceed
I want.
33:16.70
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Ah, or humidities is really low based on what was happening with the sound and of course then the performers also would notice that on stage like they would hear themselves better or worse because um I had some adjustments that I could make that sort of pushed the sound a little bit more on the on the days when it was.
33:23.66
howtosucceed
And is there anything you can adjust because of that or it's just. Wow.
33:36.19
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Ah, oh I had I had a set so that my default was sort of pushing X amount and then on the days when it was high humidity when the sound would travel more I would reduce it a little bit to to try and reduce the feedback. Um, but yeah, um.
33:48.47
howtosucceed
Wow, That's crazy.
33:53.51
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
But so you know just everything changes in in even in the same space it changes and um, you know if people consistency is nice like that's you know like you're saying what the the carpenter building the set and lighting people doing the lighting like having the the goal of all of us is making it a consistent.
34:02.20
howtosucceed
Um, yeah, yeah.
34:10.98
howtosucceed
Right.
34:13.15
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Situations. So the carpenters want to build the set the same way every time even if there's weird situations in the theater and so the sound department wants to make the same sound every time but you can't yeah right right.
34:17.24
howtosucceed
Yeah I yeah.
34:24.40
howtosucceed
Yeah, whereas when you're only in 1 theater space. You don't you do it once? Yeah oh I'm sure they have it easy? Yeah, ah.
34:31.42
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Even that still can be a trek sometimes so I certainly don't want to like be like oh yeah, they've got it easy on Broadway but um, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah yeah.
34:39.78
howtosucceed
Well, unlike the humidity probably changes and other things like that change. Um, ok I 1 thing that was cool for me to learn was how mixing actually works because I think it was different than I thought um and. That you're like mixing when you are mixing the show. You are constantly making adjustments. It's not just like okay everyone's mic is on so tell us about that.
35:04.89
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Right? Yeah sure. Ah you did a great job mixing 1 time by the way. yeah yeah yeah. I yeah
35:13.68
howtosucceed
Um, thank you I was going to thank you for that experience too that will always stick I like when b.
35:21.42
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Ah, yeah, mixing. Um you know I I think the best comparison is just that mixing is like playing an instrument. Um, you know being a part of the band. Um, and so ah, you know like I said earlier the actors are wearing microphones that are omnidirectional. They pick up everything around them and.
35:27.27
howtosucceed
Yeah.
35:40.80
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
If you if if you pick up one person. So if 1 person is singing and their microphone picks them up but they're standing next to someone else with a microphone and that microphone's going to pick them up and it picks them up at a slightly different time and if you then overlap the sounds they get all.
35:57.78
howtosucceed
Yeah, yeah, okay oh oh.
35:58.60
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Hollow and and phasey and weird. Um, it's called comb filtering because sort of if you look at a graph of the sound. It looks like a comb with all the spikes and it sounds terrible and so um, when we're mixing we try to follow the performance. So that only the microphone of the person singing or speaking is on and so that's yeah, totally I mean but the great thing about Hamilton is that it's so rhythmic that like once you know the show. Ah.
36:21.51
howtosucceed
Um, but in Hamil there's people singing and speaking all the time. Ah yeah.
36:32.27
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Especially you know, even if even if the rhythm is different from performer to farmer. You can still know how oh this performer performs The song like this. Um, and ah, you get to be familiar with that and you get to perform along with that performer their song so that you can follow along. Um and so you know we're.
36:37.81
howtosucceed
Right.
36:43.39
howtosucceed
Yeah, yeah.
36:50.00
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Turning on and off the microphones. But also ah, we're following. Um, you know changes that they do in their voice like maybe maybe they don't always emphasize a t at the end of the word but it would be nice if you could hear that T a little bit more so I might push the microphone ah up a little bit to get that T at the end of that word. Or oh this part is a little bit low in their range so they always want a little bit help or oh this part is right in the middle of their range so you can like pull back a little bit and just let them do their thing for that knowing all those things down to the level of like individual syllables is is ah.
37:20.33
howtosucceed
Yeah.
37:28.77
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
You you know part of being a mixer and um part of performing as a mixer it just becomes ah a part of the show for you and.
37:36.10
howtosucceed
And and when you say turn on and off the microphone What you mean is like for every line. It's like this person's paying a line and then you turned it off and then this person says a line and then you turn it off like that's crazy.
37:45.36
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
For every line exactly? Yeah I mean I mean it's It's a lot. But also you know I think it's It's no more bonkers than than watching someone play piano right? like playing piano is just.
37:59.65
howtosucceed
Yeah.
38:03.64
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Incredible when you think about the actual mechanics of what they're doing. Ah what you're doing um, but but um, you know this is just like a little bit more like Esoteric I guess so it seems impressive but ah.
38:04.19
howtosucceed
Right? Yeah yeah.
38:14.29
howtosucceed
Yeah I mean right? like and and I imagine that a lot of it gets into muscle memory in the same way where you're like okay I do this now I do this now I do this now but then within that you're it kind of reminds me of actually like playing Trumpet or brass instrument where you're.
38:21.45
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Oh yeah.
38:32.90
howtosucceed
You have to know what to play when but then when you're holding a note you have to tune to the person next to you, You're constantly making little adjustments. So it's you know that it's the on off. It's the when and then it's like okay within each little note. What are my? what's my phrasing? Yeah yeah.
38:38.36
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, oh yeah, yeah.
38:46.35
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, that's totally true. Yeah, so more like trombone than than than piano right? right? right? Um, yeah I think that's that's true. That's Emily true.
38:51.92
howtosucceed
Then piano or like you know you have dynamics or pedaling and yeah, right? Yeah um, okay I feel like we've already talked so much and now I'm like I need to have you back. But um, you. Toured most of your career right? How many years
39:11.86
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
I have yeah I started touring in 2002 and ah I toured basically until ah August um, with ah this this last August of 23 um with.
39:17.78
howtosucceed
Okay, oh wow.
39:29.58
howtosucceed
Um, yeah.
39:30.96
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Ah, time off obviously during the pandemic when we didn't have shows. Um I came home and um, ah you know we sat in San Francisco for a little over a year. Um I I still feel like that was a tour to me like ah you know I so I consider minnesota my home.
39:32.90
howtosucceed
My man.
39:40.80
howtosucceed
Yeah.
39:48.26
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, but I did have an apartment in San Francisco so it was a little bit less like a tour. Yeah so.
39:48.71
howtosucceed
Yeah, right? Yeah I mean I don't even know if I want to get into like what advice do you have or I guess um this this podcast is kind of about sacrifices that we make and work life balance. Um, do. Like I don't know what? what are your thoughts on that.
40:07.20
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
yeah yeah I mean I'm very much like I'm at a crosswords I think of of those questions for me right now. Um I ah I don't know I don't I don't. I don't feel like I can say that I made sacrifices but I definitely made choices ah to be on tour. Um and it meant not doing some things but also it meant I got to do a lot of things that yeah I mean I've been to like basically every large city in the Us. Um.
40:24.36
howtosucceed
Yeah.
40:31.49
howtosucceed
So much. Yeah. Bright. Yeah,, That's very cool.
40:39.67
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
And many large cities outside of the Us Um, and ah yeah, it's cool. Um, but I don't know there were like a lot of things that I didn't do um but like I I don't I don't want to I don't I don't live in like regret about oh you know I didn't have a family or didn't.
40:54.96
howtosucceed
Of course, yeah, you're not thinking about that. Yeah well and it's not too late for those things too. Yeah.
40:59.53
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, um, yeah, true. Um, ah, but ah if the last couple of years um felt a lot more like I was like why am I Why am I doing this.
41:12.88
howtosucceed
Yeah, well I think covid kind of changed how we all approach things and I'm sure you felt that so much because you were like in you know this great place in your career and that it all went away for 2 years and then you were home with your family.
41:14.41
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
But not so much Why am I doing this but I'd like to not be doing this now and it did. Yeah.
41:28.63
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, yeah, right.
41:31.32
howtosucceed
Like it then life totally changed and then you had to go back to it and do it again and you're like wait wait am I choosing this still like ah I chose this before. Yeah, that's confusing. It's a lot.
41:38.57
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Ah, right? yeah and I think I'm grateful that it happened I mean ah you know I'm not grateful that it happened but I'm grateful that ah of where I was in my career when it happened because um, you know it. It allowed me to have a ah.
41:50.77
howtosucceed
Yeah.
41:55.48
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Sort of as guaranteed a return as I possibly could I didn't go into Covid thinking. Oh my God What am I going to do I was more just like okay I'm going to go home and just wait until we can go back to work like I know Yeah, um, that was definitely a very lucky place to be in. Um.
41:57.39
howtosucceed
Yeah, totally that's really nice. Yeah.
42:12.31
howtosucceed
And Hamilton um, that helped you guys with that transition right now. That's nice.
42:16.46
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah, they were great. Yes, they were great. They were very helpful. You know they they kept our health insurance that was the biggest thing. Um, but they um you know they they did a lot of things they helped us financially and emotionally and spiritually and just like all the things they were. They were great and you know.
42:22.33
howtosucceed
Oh wow.
42:29.61
howtosucceed
Thank goodness. That's great.
42:35.40
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
I Think all of us were just in awe of how great they were um, over the pandemic. Um, and then we came back and there were some maybe I don't know tense contract issues tense cost of living issues and ah it was it was kind of a shock.
42:39.54
howtosucceed
Yeah, oh.
42:54.29
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
I Think to a lot of us and that's part of my um, my current like not sure what I want to do because it was kind of shocking how? Ah once we got back to business. It was very much back to business and not so much about, um.
43:07.76
howtosucceed
No, but I mean it always kind of is inher theater. Yeah, well it has to be.
43:11.62
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
The the well-being of everyone. Um, and ah yeah, yeah, it's so True. So I don't I don't know what that means for the future. Um, yeah. I Try not to be too existentialist about it. But I just I don't want a tour anymore. Um I have toured for a long time and I think ah think I've done my part I put it I'd paid my dues. Yeah um, but I don't know what that means going forward. Ah um, you know I'm also just.
43:32.60
howtosucceed
Yeah, yeah, you put in your dues you paid your time. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's tricky.
43:49.12
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
There's like a lot of stuff going on I think it was a little bit weird to be in San Francisco when the pandemic hit and just realize how dependent I was on on outside factors like I wanted to be.
44:01.72
howtosucceed
Yeah.
44:05.76
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
It made me realize that I I would like to be a little bit more prepared for emergencies like um like to be somewhere where I can keep some emergency food more easily and some emergency supplies and and um, be able to yeah so um.
44:15.59
howtosucceed
Right.
44:21.19
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
and and San Francisco was like the most you know I had an apartment so I could actually I had a cabinet full of beans or whatever I wanted but in hotels. Ah you know you're just completely at the mercy of the hotels and whatever. So yeah.
44:25.19
howtosucceed
They are.
44:31.40
howtosucceed
Right? I remember I feel like you posted something about like a ah carbon monoxide detector that you could travel with I don't know if that was you or somebody like do you have, but you also have that oh because.
44:38.76
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Oh yeah, yeah, that's actually the the thing that I was holding up earlier that Yeah, that's the that's the thing that shows it ul shows shows humidity in temperature but it's a carbon Monoxide detector. Yeah, or no, it's It's a carbon dioxide detector.
44:46.00
howtosucceed
Oh because I remember oh okay because I'm just thinking about when you're when you're like living in a hotel room. You assume that they have all these like emergency. Do you know what? I'm saying like.
45:00.14
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, right right? Yeah and just like you know like oh does this hotel staff know what to do if there's a Tornado warning. No.
45:02.47
howtosucceed
That they're taking care of your well-being. But then you're like oh I I don't know.
45:16.27
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Like I mean they probably have emergency procedures written somewhere. But um, you know the random whoever randomly happens to be at the desk like there's just like a lot of that and you know unfortunately we're in a world where we're going to have more and more emergencies of various forms. Um, and I don't know I just sort of decided that.
45:16.46
howtosucceed
Um, yeah, yeah, that's scary.
45:31.59
howtosucceed
You're right.
45:35.67
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Like to be in um, in a position where I can have some better options and.
45:39.21
howtosucceed
Yeah, yeah, um I mean I hesitate to be like what's next for you. But you know if you want to talk about how you're yeah.
45:45.86
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
yeah yeah I mean I don't know like that's the thing is I I honestly don't know I came home in August from from tour. Um, and ah I sort of I sort of just decided that I didn't want to think about what's next for a few months you know I'm in in a fortunate position financially like I had the time and.
45:58.37
howtosucceed
Yeah, because you can yeah.
46:05.25
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Um, and so yeah I just sort of decided I wanted to come home and spend time with the family and and um and the cats you know, kind of have time with the cats. Most importantly, with the cats.
46:11.51
howtosucceed
Um, yeah, totally well I know for me I've taken years off of this career I took about 3 years off many years ago and then you know the 2 for for covid and it. It's a nice reminder that like you can come back. You know I could like I like didn't really play piano for three years and then I came back and I do it professionally so like it's okay, yeah, it's okay and and and like good like the perspective that you gain when you take those breaks.
46:31.83
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Right? right? did yeah yeah yeah.
46:46.13
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
And definitely yeah, yeah, um, you know I'd also just like to the pandemic also showed me an us that you can do a lot over the internet. So like I'd love to work from home. Um, and figure out something that I can do.
46:47.74
howtosucceed
It's huge.
46:57.40
howtosucceed
Right? Yeah, oh my gosh Totally yeah, that's good right? Cool Thank you This is amazing. Your.
47:04.55
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
That uses the skills that I've learned ah but who knows what that looks like? yeah yeah of course, thank you? Um, same.
47:15.90
howtosucceed
1 of my favorite people. Thank you? Um, yeah, and okay, where so people can find you on social media or what all those things.
47:26.50
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Yeah I I mean I like I'm always happy to talk to people I guess if they have specific reasons to talk to me about sound or whatever. Um, ah I have my website is kevindasmmacoy.com and most of the um, ah most of my stuff is linked from that from there.
47:33.75
howtosucceed
Um, yeah.
47:39.11
howtosucceed
Great.
47:45.46
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Ah I don't know I guess you can message me on Instagram maybe I don't even know what my Instagram handle is but all that stuff is linked from kevindeshmio.com ah yeah I I mean I try to like be on social media. But ah yeah.
47:45.86
howtosucceed
Um, awesome sure I'll find it. Ah I'll find it. You're not you mean you're not like a influencer I can hear next job right.
48:03.56
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
I used to do Twitter a lot but I haven't used Twitter in long in a while now. Um I I put I put yeah I don't and I use x um I used to use Reddit and I don't use Reddit so much anymore I use mastodon. Yeah people can find me on mastodon. Um I do hang out in a in a um, a discord.
48:03.76
howtosucceed
Oh yeah, x.
48:12.80
howtosucceed
Ah, yeah, good for you. Oh I don't know this? okay.
48:23.45
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
For like technical theater people. Um, and if that's something that your listeners are interested in. Um, they can find me and um I'll help them get into it all right? Yeah, thank you? Yeah my pleasure I Guess yeah.
48:25.92
howtosucceed
Cool all right. They can find you amazing all right? Well thank you so much. Let's keep in touch. Ah fine I Know it's hard. But.
48:42.92
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
I I've really I've really had to fight hard against the hermiting instinct. Um and and failed in many ways I've definitely been hermiting quite a lot. Um, but good. Thank you, Thank you? That's a great plan all right.
48:43.30
howtosucceed
We can probably do that. Yeah, well I will bug you in a few weeks and we'll catch up all right? Thank you so much have a great rest of your day. Okay, bye.
49:01.39
Kevin McCoy _he_him_
Thanks you to bye.