How to Go from a Tour Swing to International Associate Choreographer with Camden Gonzales!

This episode is with one of the smartest and most talented humans in our industry, Camden Gonzales. Cami and Katie met working on Hamilton in San Francisco in 2019, where they spent many hours together in the rehearsal room – Cami was a dance captain AND a swing. NOW she is the global associate choreographer of Moulin Rouge. In this episode, you’ll hear stories about her leading all of the kids in the national tour of Mathilda, the insanity of being a swing in Groundhog Day on Broadway, and how she intentionally put herself in the right places at the right time, asked for what she wanted, and worked her butt off to get to where she is today.

Find Cami:
IG @camdeng
www.camdengonzales.com

Theme Music Composed by Rachel Dean and Orchestrated by Katie Coleman

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Transcript

Cami Interview
 
[00:00:10] Katie: Hello and welcome to How to Succeed in Theater by Sacrificing Everything. I'm your host, Katie Coleman. All sacrifices discussed in this podcast were fully consensual and a hundred percent worth it because we love what we do, right guys? Right!

Today's episode is with one of the smartest and most talented humans I know Camden Gonzalez Cammie and I met working on Hamilton in San Francisco, where we spent many hours together in the rehearsal room. She was a dance captain and a swing, which you'll hear more about. And now she is the global associate choreographer of Moulin Rouge. 

Today you'll hear stories about her leading all of the kids in the national tour of Matilda, the insanity of being a swing in Groundhog Day on Broadway, and how she intentionally put herself in the right places at the right time, asked for what she wanted, and worked her butt off to get to where she is today. 

Such an inspiration. Here's Cami. 

Ah, I'm so excited to talk to you. It's been so long.  

[00:01:25] Cami: I know.  

[00:01:26] Katie: I was remembering we met in 2017 when we did that reading Jesse Sanchez musical. Yes.  

[00:01:33] Cami: Suenos or something. Yeah, I forgot about that. But yeah. And then  

[00:01:39] Katie: a year later we met at Hamilton. Right. I'm, I don't really know your journey, so I want to hear how you got from the Bay Area and then you went to U C L A and then International Theater Woman. 

[00:01:55] Cami: Oh my gosh. Well, I grew up as a dancer in the Bay Area. My mom put me in class when I was seven and I just never left. Like, I just kinda was like, yep, this is it. And then I had a friend in elementary school who was in like a kid's. Theater group, well, mostly musicals, and it was there that I kind of fell in love with theater. 

And realize that just dance didn't feel like enough. Like, not that it's just dance, but for me personally, it was like I wanted to put all of it together. And then in high school, I, I applied to like every theater school you can imagine, like I think I applied to like 14 schools or something. Oh my goodness. 

And really thought I would end up in this sort of a conservatory. Super intense program, but I ended up at U C L A, which I think was the right thing for me. While I was in school, I met Peggy Hickey, who just passed away unfortunately, and she's a choreographer. She did Anastasia and she did Gentleman's Guide, but prior to that she's always lived in Los Angeles, and so I became sort of an intern assistant for her. 

So, She would just bring me with her on any gigs that she had in town, like, pay me a hundred bucks, buy me dinner, and Cool. I got to work with some like pretty, yeah, like some pretty serious Broadway professionals that were like friends of hers. Even up to that point, I had kind of been sort of picked. By my teachers for leadership roles. 

To me, it feels like on accident, I'm sure to them it feels like they saw something in me, but of course. Yeah. Yeah. And so with with Peggy, so I was just getting all these cool opportunities in LA sort of in my senior year and right after I graduated. And what year was this? Oh, 2010. I graduated from college. 

Okay, cool. Then I got my equity card at La Jolla Playhouse. I did a t y a tour of like a Frida Kahlo. Musical, which was like this really beautiful little play called Frida Libre. And it was, yeah, it was like a 45 minute musical and I played Frida Kahlo. It was all about like following your dreams and like toughness in in girls, young girls and women and friendship and all this stuff. 

And that's where I got my equity card at La Jolla Playhouse. And that was in 20 beginning of 2013. And then I moved to New York right after  

[00:04:11] Katie: that. Wow. So what inspired you to move to New York?  

[00:04:14] Cami: I just always thought I would, it just sort of always felt like where I would end up. At that point, most of my friends were there already. 

Yeah. So it's been almost 10 years. Like this year in September, it'll be 10 years. Right. Since I moved to New York, you've  

[00:04:29] Katie: done so much in those 10 years.  

[00:04:31] Cami: So many things. Gosh. I mean, when I first got here, I just hit the ground running. I auditioned for everything under the sun. Even things I was totally not right for, just because I didn't know what else to do. 

And yeah, I worked at Bear Burger and I worked at a gym and I worked at, um, I  

[00:04:49] Katie: was just gonna ask if you had a side gig Yeah. And how you made that work. That's fine.  

[00:04:53] Cami: Yeah. Yeah. I worked. As a hostess at a couple different places. Bear Burger being one of them. And then I worked at a gym as like a front desk person and that kind of became my main survival job. 

Yeah. And they, it was a CrossFit gym and they were able to sort of let me go and come back. So when I would book regional theater gigs, they kind of would just let me come back when I was done, which was really nice. That's so nice. Yeah. And it had hours where like I could either open the gym and get there at like five in the morning and like, Be ready for auditions by 12, or I could do like the closing shift, which started at like four 30. 

So it was kind of a nice, nice situation. I mean, I got paid pennies, but it worked. Yeah, somehow it worked. And yeah, I was just auditioning like crazy. And eventually I did a couple regional gigs. I did, you know, sort of all the big hits. Right? A chorus line. I did West Side Story, I did Mary Poppins. Good, good. 

And then, I booked Matilda the musical, which I did on tour for like a year and a half. Okay. And I was the kids' dance captain and swing, so I swung all the kids and the adults. Oh my gosh.  

[00:06:05] Katie: Which is crazy. Wow. So was that typical for someone to be an adult playing  

[00:06:10] Cami: a kid? We had kids swings uhhuh because of how expensive I imagine and how complicated having many, many kids in a show is. 

I think it just becomes an easier way to like pad the coverage for the kids ensemble. So we had, I think on Broadway they had two boys and two girls swings. But on the road we only had one of each. Okay. And then myself and my friend, Who was the other adult child? Swing covered the kids as well. And so we would go on pretty regularly. 

Um, yeah, because we would also, each kid got a show off a week. A week, so Cool. Yeah. So they'd do seven shows. Mm-hmm. You know, I would sort of schedule out when their days off would be and when each of us would go on and when the kids swings would go on and Nice. Yeah. It was a ton of work. I learned a lot. 

Yeah. In my first like really big job. How long were you  

[00:07:10] Katie: doing that? A  

[00:07:11] Cami: year and a half. I did a year in the road in the States, and then we did six months in Toronto, which was really fun. Cool. And Toronto was great because everyone was on. Like a six month no exceptions contract. Okay. And the kids' rules there are much more strict. 

So we almost never had rehearsal. We didn't have to replace anybody until the very end when they were gonna go back out onto the road. So it was like six months of like summer and fall in Toronto. Just living like, it almost felt like a nine to five life. Like you could just have your life outside of the theater. 

No rehearsal, no real responsibilities other than like showing up at night and doing the show.  

[00:07:51] Katie: What was your life outside of the job when you were there? Like what did you do during that time?  

[00:07:57] Cami: Yeah, yeah. During the US portion of the tour, I had no life. I was like, yeah, run entirely ragged. We were constantly rehearsing the kids. 

We were constantly rehearsing replacements. The schedule was just relentless and it wasn't a huge tour. You know, we were in each city for two weeks at a time for the most part. Right. So it just was so grueling. And we did the Kennedy Center over Christmas and we were replacing like all three Matildas and a trench bowl. 

Oh wow. And a kid's, two kids swings like, and I was in the show all the time. I mean, it was just, Relentless.  

[00:08:32] Katie: And because you were dance captain, you had to lead those rehearsals and those,  

[00:08:37] Cami: correct? Correct. Yeah. Yes. And we had, there was, that's a lot. Another dance captain and an assistant, but because I was in charge of the kids, yeah, the, that's where the bulk of the work came and we warmed them up before every show. 

We had like an extended lift call that we would call safeties before every show. So it was just like a ton of work. Like way too much work for not enough money. Right. Which was why Toronto felt like dessert. It felt like a treat because Nice. You know, I, I took voice lessons for the first time in years. I like found voice teacher there. 

I was going to the gym regularly and like made friends with the gym community, this CrossFit gym that I found there and was cooking all the time and like That's great. Going Yeah. To down to the lake and like, you know, it just was. Normal  

[00:09:28] Katie: life Much better. Yeah. Which,  

[00:09:30] Cami: yeah. Yeah. And I think, I just think as like artists and as performers and things like, we so rarely get that. 

I think like we feel like the job is our lives, which is something that I'm just thinking a ton about lately. But we feel like the job is our lives and yeah. So we don't know a, we don't know what to do with ourselves outside of the job. Which is actually advice that Peggy had given me was like, find out what you like to do, because once you have a job, you've gotta, it wasn't like, find out what you like to do because you'll be doing that Instead. 

It was like, find out what you like to do because if you're successful, you'll actually have free time. When you're not at the theater and you've gotta figure out like what to do with it.  

[00:10:14] Katie: And then also just remembering who you are outside of the job so that you're not like defining yourself only by the job. 

[00:10:21] Cami: Right. And like begging for someone else to give you purpose, right? Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Amen. Yeah. Yeah. So, I found that to be really satisfying in that environment and was sort of the first taste of that. I had had, you know, having done the show for a year already, I didn't ever have to really like study before I went on for a track. 

It's like I could go on for anybody. It was all sort of in my brain at that point. Yeah, we didn't have too many like crises of, you know, the way that shows now, I think post covid, there's like cut shows and it's like always just feels like something's in chaos. Yeah, and we just didn't have that in the Toronto period of that show. 

We definitely had it other times before. Um, yeah. So from there I got to do Groundhog Day on Broadway, which was an insane experience.  

[00:11:15] Katie: Did you have time in between those two?  

[00:11:17] Cami: No, I had, I feel like I must have had like a weekend or something. I mean, it was so short. Oh wow. Yeah.  

[00:11:23] Katie: Oh wow. So how did, so you did six months in Toronto and then that was over and you had Uhhuh auditioned for Groundhog Day? 

[00:11:30] Cami: Yes, I had gone. It's the same creative team. Mostly of Matilda. And so they had called me in, they, I think they needed a dance captain, and I think the associate choreographer pulled me in last minute. I hadn't been going in at all. And I had kind of emailed her at one point and said like, Hey, like, you know, I would be interested and got not like a negative response back, but sort of a like, yeah, okay, sure. 

Response. And I was like, all right, well I guess it's not for me. You had  

[00:11:56] Katie: reached out to them  

[00:11:57] Cami: initially? Yeah, just, well, just to say like, I'm interested. Yeah, that's great. And having no idea what the show would be or if I was right for it at all. Right. You know, it turns out that what was cool about the show is the ensemble. 

Everyone had their own sort of defined characters. So to be a swing or to be a dance captain, you had to play all of these different parts.  

[00:12:18] Katie: Got it. So like wasn't just an ensemble track, it was.  

[00:12:22] Cami: Right. A character. Yes, exactly. Cool. Because it's someone that he, like Phil, the main character meets like every day. 

Mm-hmm. It's like a recurring. Oh  

[00:12:30] Katie: right pattern. That makes sense.  

[00:12:31] Cami: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So everyone was sort of a definable. Look character, nice scene with Phil that would evolve over the show. Yeah. And so that was in 2017, the beginning of 2017. I was the dance captain of that show. I was a swing. It was like hands down the hardest show I've ever  

[00:12:49] Katie: done. 
 

Like the actual show itself? Yeah,  

[00:12:52] Cami: yeah, yeah. Because there were five turntables on stage. What, yeah. How is that? How is that possible? They were like concentric. So there was like, Oh my gosh. One giant one. So it could move just like as one giant unit. Okay. And then there was like a medium sized one that was offset to one side. 

Oh. And then inside of that were three small turntables. That could all rotate independently.  

[00:13:19] Katie: I don't understand how someone can stage a show with a turntable. Just the, the thought process involved in that alone is just stunning to me.  

[00:13:30] Cami: I know. Well, we had one in the rehearsal room. We'd like built a turntable. 

Yeah, you have to. And we had, every morning we'd start, like they'd turn it on and we'd like jog on it and like run backwards now step on it, practice step, getting off of it. Like, oh, just to get used to. By like five minute boot camp for like the first week. Oh my gosh. I mean, it was able to do some really amazing things. 

Like there's a car chase scene in the movie and in the play they were able to like lock this car bench, like a truck bench into the set, into the stage. Cool. And it literally moved like a Disneyland ride because of the way, oh my gosh. That these pieces would rotate around each other. Like it was really, really impressive. 

But I think like, The show was so difficult from the inside. Mm-hmm. Like if you imagine the helpless satisfied sequence in Hamilton, right? Right. They do a whole sequence and then you watch it again and you have to repeat that choreography, but a little bit different. And some of it's backwards and some of, you know what I mean? 

Yeah. It's like, yeah. That was the whole show. Wow. Take this choreography. Now do it again, but this time with less counts. This time count in seven. This time it's a totally different song. And each character, I mean, it's a genius idea. Like each character had their own movement sort of, um, vocabulary. That changed every day. 

So as a swing, you not only had to know seven tracks, I had to know seven tracks. And then how each of their pieces of choreography or their like journey through the day as we would call them, like day one, day two, day three, was how we differentiated where we were in the show. You had to memorize that person's. 

Vocab and then mm-hmm. How it evolved throughout the  

[00:15:21] Katie: show, because it's not just, okay, this is this number, then this is this number. It's like so similar, which then makes it confusing because it's not the  

[00:15:30] Cami: same. Correct. And then, Quick changing back and forth into your, to the top of each day. Oh my gosh. 

Every time it would repeat. I mean, it was like a quick change. Crazy town backstage and, yeah. I think we all got really close. We all ultimately I think, look back with like fond memories and like we all text each other on Groundhog Day and all those things, but it was just sort of mired with difficulty. 

Like the stage broke on the day. That was supposed to be our first preview and like we literally, they literally had pins made as like a, a marketing thing for that day only. They gave everyone bags. Oh no. And a pin that says a first Broadway preview only happens once. Oh my God. And then we literally had to do it again. 

Like it was just,  

[00:16:21] Katie: oh no. Crazy. And that show did not run very  

[00:16:25] Cami: long, right? It didn't, no, I just, we just didn't quite, I don't know, we didn't find the audience. It was such a packed season. It was the year of great comment, Charlie and The Chocolate Factory Dear Evan Hanssen, which ended up winning everything. 

And you know, we got nominated for everything and we didn't win. Anything. Oh man. And we were sort of the only comedy of the season, but it was, it was hard to capture that in any kind of press number. Like there just wasn't right. It was, it was a hard thing to describe. Like I think we had something really special, but it wasn't. 

It was hard to get people to see it. I'm always  

[00:17:04] Katie: so grateful that it's not my job to sell tickets. 'cause I don't even know where I would begin with trying to do that. I  

[00:17:12] Cami: know, I know. Now it's just all social media really. But it's like, yeah, it was just really hard. It was really hard to, to punch through I think that season for us. 

Yeah. Um, yeah, so we lasted like. I wanna say we opened in April of that year and we closed in September. So I think that's like six months.  

[00:17:29] Katie: Okay. Yeah. That's, you know, there are some much worse Yeah. Shows. Shows that do much  

[00:17:33] Cami: worse. Yeah. And it was like, again, ultimately a great experience. Another experience that I learned a lot with, right. 

So once we knew we were closing, I started auditioning for everything that I could and I went to the E C C, like the dance, E C C for Hamilton. Wow. 'cause I'd never been in. I sort of just figured like one day I'll have an appointment for this show. Like eventually they'll let me in. And I knew at that point that they always taught the same thing for that first round. 

So I was like, lemme just go and I'll learn it. I'm sure they're not looking for anybody like, and sure enough, like they, they were, yeah, I really didn't expect anything of it. But Steph Clemens was there and the Broadway dance captains were there, and I. Had no idea. They were in the middle of casting their second national tour. 

Didn't even know it was happening. Oh my gosh. Wow. And the next week, I wanna say I was in callbacks. For that production for the Philip Tour.  

[00:18:32] Katie: Well, and by that point you had this incredible resume too that had exactly what they were looking for, which is swings and dance captains, I'm sure. Yes.  

[00:18:39] Cami: Which is I You're right, is exactly what they were looking for. 

Like I remember being in the audition and watching my headshot go into like its own pile, and I was like, Yeah. And I was like, well, that's cool. Like, but still thinking I'd just end up in a file somewhere, you know? Yeah.  

[00:18:54] Katie: Like maybe this, this girl in five years or whatever, who knows.  

[00:18:58] Cami: Right. Exactly. And you just never know. 

And I, I can say that for sure. Now being on the other side, like you just never know what it's for. Um, totally. I did a singing callback and. It's very possible. I'm conflating now. My memory is like not totally accurate, but I want to say that by the following week I was in final dance callbacks. This  

[00:19:19] Katie: is an incredible story. 

I mean, you were really the right place at the right time for so many of these opportunities.  

[00:19:26] Cami: Yeah, I, I definitely feel that, but also  

[00:19:28] Katie: have the skill to back it up.  

[00:19:30] Cami: Yeah. Greyhound Day was my first, and at this point only Broadway show as a performer. And I remember being in backstage with people and some people sort of like snubbing. 

ECCs. Mm-hmm. And be like, oh, I'm never doing  

[00:19:42] Katie: that. Oh. Like at that point in their career, they don't need  

[00:19:45] Cami: to do that. Yeah. Like, oh, I'm not doing that. And I just sort of felt like, oh, why not? But you never know. Like what's the, like you can be picky about it, I'm sure. Like you can pick and choose. Sure. And I can understand now that I'm 35, like maybe feeling that way, but I'm in a very different person way, especially for Hamilton. 

Yeah. I just remember feeling like, no, I just like want to, like, I should try, like I don't have a job. Like what else am I gonna do? And I had been really lucky at that point to be gainfully employed for two plus years, so I was like, Not down to not have a paycheck. Yeah. So I ended up in a final callback, like I swear, two weeks later. 

And I didn't even know that it was the finals. Like I remember Steph saying in the room, because it's sort of this marathon day, which I think is what they usually do, especially for swings. It's like we started with, I wanna say room where it happens. And they made a cut. And then we did, um, what did I miss? 

And they made a cut. And then we did Yorktown. And I remember between, what did I miss? And Yorktown, I don't know, there was maybe like 20 of us left. I remember her saying, don't you just love a final callback day? And I was like, this is a final. Oh, I didn't even know. And I remember her saying like, some of you have been in for us so much. 

Like she was basically saying like, thank you for all your hard work if you've made it this far. You're in the files, like this may just not be the day for you, kind of a thing.  

[00:21:07] Katie: Uhhuh. And, and this was like your second day with ' 

[00:21:09] Cami: em? Literally my second day. And she says, she, she pointed me out. She said, some of you have been in like a bunch of times and we're so grateful. 

And I see the growth, like that's why you're here. And then some of you, she like, looks right at me. She's like, we just met the other day. And like, that never happens. And like, how exciting. And in my head I go, oh, I'm cut. That was her saying, thanks for coming on. Cut.  

[00:21:29] Katie: Right. Like, we'll call you in a year. Yes. 

Oh my  

[00:21:31] Cami: God. And so we all go out of the room, they make another cut, I get to come back in and then I'm like, oh God. Okay. So then, I don't know, there's like eight or 10 of us or something. And Okay. At this point I think a lot of people that have, were in that room have since been in the show. Um, But I booked it. 

Wow. Yeah. So then I went on the road with them. It was nice to be a swing. I had just been like pretty horrifically dumped and oh, so I was going out on the road, newly single, broken hearted, and I wasn't the dance captain for the first time. And it was like absolutely what I needed, which was just to focus on myself for a minute. 

You were a swing for all? I was a swing. Six tracks or whatever, right?  

[00:22:19] Katie: Five. Five, yeah. And did you enjoy touring? Like were you excited to tour  

[00:22:22] Cami: again? Yeah, I, I was, I was excited because, You know, I had enjoyed the touring aspect when I did Matilda and I was excited. Hamilton had much better cities on its roster. 

Yeah. And much longer sit downs like we were. Yeah, that's nice. We were places for a month plus, right. In a lot of, um, instances. Yeah. I was just excited, but it was nice to just, it was a couple things. Going back to the idea of like work being the definition of who you are. I had realized as a swing in the room, I had no idea. 

How to fit into the puzzle without being the dance captain. Without being in charge. Oh,  

[00:23:00] Katie: that's interesting.  

[00:23:01] Cami: I just felt like I didn't have the identity I had made for myself Hmm. Over the past, like two and a half, three years as that swing. And, and then I was also had put so much of my identity into this relationship that I had been in, and so I sort of felt. 

Like I had no idea who I was when I started that process. Right, right. I was like, oh, all of these things that have come to define me outside, I mean, inside of work and outside of work, I think, yeah. Had gone away are different. Yeah. So, yeah, it was hard. It was a good experience. I was glad to not have to worry about anyone but myself for a while and nine months. 

I would say, or like I left nine months in to go to the next company, so maybe like six months in they offered me to go to the Peggy Company to become, to start as the dance captain There. Which is how we met. Yeah. So I came back to New York. We rehearsed the show. What was nice about coming in as the dance captain after having done the show is I could actually be an expert. 

Like every other time I've been dance captain, I was learning next to these people and then they go, what was that step? What's my number? What do I do? Oh, and you have to like, You just have to be seven steps ahead of everybody else in a way that is kind of insane.  

[00:24:19] Katie: Like immediately as opposed to actually being yes prepared right. 

Before you take on that. I see. Right. As  

[00:24:25] Cami: opposed to like, actually yes I do have this knowledge 'cause I've already done this job for six months. Right. That's  

[00:24:31] Katie: nice. It's nice too that you were switching companies 'cause you could just meet all new people. Yeah. Be an authority figure. Totally know what you're talking about. 

That's really nice.  

[00:24:40] Cami: Yeah, that company, I mean, both companies honestly were such special groups of people. When we got to sit down in San Francisco for a while, multiple people, and I have talked about how special that felt because it also felt, yeah. A little bit like a nine to five. The way that we had, I had felt in Toronto where like I grew up in the Bay Area, so I was having dinner with my parents every Sunday. 

I was living with a friend from high school. I was reconnecting with some of my friends that I'd gone to school with as a kid. Yeah, you were like  

[00:25:09] Katie: driving, you had a car. I felt like that was so nice. Like you were just living  

[00:25:13] Cami: your life. Totally. Yeah. Had probably the best sort of experience of, you know, Quote, work-life balance in that experience. 

Mm-hmm. I also, that's great. Again, knew the show already, so when we do onstage rehearsals, I wasn't cramming in the morning to make sure I knew what I was doing. It was just sort of all in there. So I was able to really have fun outside of the theater, have relationships that didn't revolve around the show, but also have time to nurture those relationships that did. 

Right. Because we all had time and space. And we're not moving constantly and we're able to, you know, just enjoy our time there. I mean, San Francisco was tough. Like there was definitely some Yeah, tough moments. Mostly about like neighborhood. It's a tough city. Yeah. The neighborhood and like a cockroach walked across the stage once during 10 dual commandments. 

Oh my gosh.  

[00:26:02] Katie: Really? I've never heard that  

[00:26:03] Cami: story. Oh yeah. All of us were just, Staring at it like, oh, that's so crazy. Um, that's hilarious.  

[00:26:13] Katie: All scarred for life because it's scarred. Scarred. When you're dance captain and swing, are you swinging in as much as the other swings? Yeah, it's  

[00:26:23] Cami: a good question. It sort of depends on a few factors. 

One is like some dance captains like really, really wanna be on all the time. I sort of didn't, 'cause I was like, I'm working really hard already. Like if I don't have to go on like I'm good. Yeah. But it just depends. So some of it's like personal preference and then some of it is sort of how your stage manager wants to cover the show and how you all work together. 

So Kim, who is our stage manager, who's one of the best stage managers. Yeah, I've ever worked with, she really had a big hand in who went on, like some stage managers leave it up to the dance team. Sometimes they're involved. It just kind of depends on the relationship. She was pretty involved and so she would put me on pretty equally to the others. 

Then once we started kind of, once we'd been there for a while, she sort of understood that. I was like, I've just run this rehearsal all day, like, and it's one of the harder tracks, like, can you please just put someone else on? She'd be like, oh yeah, sure. I  

[00:27:16] Katie: feel like there was also times that were much busier when you're like putting in a new cast member or a new swing. 

Right. Versus once everyone was  

[00:27:23] Cami: in. Right, because like when we met, we were replacing, what was it, like 13 people? All new swings. Yeah. And so in that period I definitely wasn't going on as much, but I was also rehearsing during the shows, so I just wasn't available to go on. Oh yeah,  

[00:27:37] Katie: right. As a dance captain, is it helpful for you to be doing the tracks so that there in your body, or is it like once you know it, you  

[00:27:45] Cami: know it, it's definitely helpful to do it. 

Do each of those tracks periodically. Yeah. 'cause you never want it to get too far away. Obviously. Like we all kept, I keep like pretty extensive notes and tracking sheets and everything and there's always certain moments in every show that you have to check. Like there's little things, it's always different for different people that you're like, I will never remember this off the top of my head. 

I have to check. Or something that's like maybe a little dangerous. And so you're like, let me just double check that I know exactly where I'm going for this moment, or. It's less fun if you haven't done it in a while because you just can't quite trust your muscle memory, or you can't quite trust Right. 

Your brain to not get in the way. Mm-hmm. Being a swing is such a mental game of like, I can only imagine trusting your instincts, making smart decisions on the fly. Also, like getting out of your own way. Like even after doing Hamilton for two years, if I had to go on for a track that I hadn't done in a minute, like I'd be in the wings being like, you know it, you got it. 

You know this. You're gonna be just fine. Yeah. And once I would go on, like your body sort of just like takes you through the track. Yeah. Or at least that's how I felt. I mean, truthfully, like up until the last time I went on like. Was probably in the wings going like, you got it, you got it. You know this, you're gonna be good. 

Just like not letting yourself psych yourself  

[00:28:58] Katie: out. It is amazing how much your body learns things and, and takes over. Yeah. I that happens to me with, with playing a show. My hands know it and I'm like, how did what, yeah. I was not consciously thinking about that, but my body just did it. Yes,  

[00:29:15] Cami: yes. And like, it's something that I, when we. 

Now I work at Moin Rouge, and we could talk about that, but like when I'm, yes, teaching swings, whether it was in Hamilton as a dance captain, or now when it's as an associate at Moin Rouge, I talk a lot about what are the things in your power to know and like you have to know them backwards and forwards. 

Lyrics like you gotta be off book. Dance like the steps. You have to know what comes next. You need your body and your like mouth to be able to go on autopilot so that you can respond to all the new information you will get. Yes. Specifically the first time you go on, but honestly, every time, like something is gonna surprise you. 

[00:29:54] Katie: That makes a lot of sense to me. When I was learning the Hamilton score, I knew that I just had to get the lyrics just like in my body. Mm-hmm. Like I, I won't have time to think about what word I'm reading that just has to be in muscle memory. And so that I can focus on this crazy piano part that I'm playing. 

Right? Or Yeah. Like what's being thrown at you in the moment. Yeah. I  

[00:30:14] Cami: just think it's sort of the only way, like your brain can only handle so many, right? It can only focus on so many things, you know? Yeah. 

Okay  

[00:30:29] Katie: folks, I am taking a quick break to ask you to please support this podcast by hitting, follow and or leaving us well me a review. The goal of how to succeed in theater by sacrificing everything is to bring new stories about theater people and how they found. Success in order to help you find success yourself. 

I'm also very eager to hear suggestions from you so I can bring you more of what you want to hear and questions that you might want answered on an episode. Please find me on Instagram and check the show notes for more information. Thank you. So now you are with Moulin Rouge in a different position entirely. 

Did you get Moulin Rouge? You got it like during the shutdown, right?  

[00:31:13] Cami: I booked Moulin Rouge. I was hired February of 2020. So, oh my God. Where I was offered the job, I should say. Right. So around, I wanna say like Christmas of 2019, I had kind of decided and I was gonna look for jobs in New York and try and be in the city. 

My boyfriend at the time, fiance now, and I had spent a lot of time doing distance 'cause we basically dated, yeah. The whole time I was on tour. Wow. And we just sort of felt like, we have to know if this works in person. Right. Oh my goodness. He always said, kept saying like, I wanna know what it's like to like sit on the couch on a Tuesday night with you or to like remind you that we need batteries. 

Like I just want us to have a life together. Yeah. So I had sort of made that choice and with that had sort of shared with Ashley Rod bro, who was the resident director of Hamilton at the time in San Francisco. Yes. That I was sort of looking towards offstage positions. I had just the women I'd seen in the industry with kids, like that's what they were doing, right. 

And Hamilton like wrecked my knees. And so I was just like, I don't know how much longer I really can do each shows a week, but I've basically been doing that for five years straight.  

[00:32:24] Katie: Ashley was involved in Moulin Rouge at that time as well, right?  

[00:32:27] Cami: Correct. She was the associate director of Moulin Rouge when it opened on Broadway and then came back to San Francisco, but was going to be going back to Moin Rouge. 

Got it. And she knew that Sonia, Sonia Tya, mm-hmm. Was looking to expand her team for an eventual global rollout of the show. Wow. And wow. Was very specifically looking for people who understood theater. 'cause the people around her, for the most part, were dance world, contemporary dance people, all of whom are unbelievable dancers. 

Unbelievably capable, but just didn't ha know necessarily the ins and outs, or weren't interested in Yeah, the ins and outs of commercial theater. Mm-hmm. So I heard from her in, I think January of 2020, we had a phone call. I happened to be going to New York for an audition the following week. She got me a ticket to the show We met. 

She was stressed about making sure that I knew it wasn't a performing position because that's where I had just come from. Yeah. And understanding that the job was what it was. She was worried about finding someone that like just wanted to be in the show instead. Sure. I was like pretty bold. I was like, you knew? 

Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I would love this job if you would like to have me. Like, I was pretty forward with her. Good, good for you. I was like, this is what I'm interested in. This is where I see my career going. I mean, COVID was like in the air already at that point. Like literally, literally in the air. I think we met early February and then like a week later maybe I had an offer and then Covid hit. 

And so originally I was hired to be sort of the global associate of the show, and then because of Covid, I. The rollout sort of happened in reverse order and happened before I really knew the show well enough to do that. Oh, interesting. And so then the national tour sort of became my main focus, which actually was really great. 

[00:34:20] Katie: Those opened earlier than America's  

[00:34:23] Cami: tour, correct? It was originally supposed to be in the other direction. I believe the original order was tour, I wanna say London, then Australia, then Germany. Maybe London and Australia were reversed, but the tour was meant to be first. So we learned, I mean, I did technically learn the show on Zoom. 

Um Wow. But truthfully, I sort of was around for and helped out with the Broadway remount, and so that was really where I, nice. Learned and understood the show. Mm-hmm. And then because the, the national tour version does not have any kind of pass around or anything in the house. Oh, um, I helped Sonya restage that version of the show. 

Cool. And by restaging it and like re basically charting out the whole thing in stage. Right. That was really where I learned the intricacies of the show. Nice. Um, just like hours and hours on my couch with my iPad and a glass of wine, like one slide at a time, plotting out at least where we would start, and of course it changed in the room and changed in tech and all of that. 

[00:35:30] Katie: When you're doing that kind of work, does it feel creative or does it feel like it's. Just this like organizational structure that you're learning, that  

[00:35:39] Cami: part of it felt creative. 'cause it was like creative problem solving because you were actually  

[00:35:43] Katie: adjusting the show.  

[00:35:45] Cami: Yeah, like restaging major parts of the show, there's a number in the show called Shut Up and Raise Your Glass, which is like the after party of the Moulin Rouge. 

So it's all the people that perform at the Moulin Rouge and they're all getting drunk and there's no set. Patterns to be found in terms of formations or any of that. It's like this raucous party where everyone's just sort of everywhere. Mm-hmm. And I, for that one, she was pretty stressed about like how to fit everyone on stage because they'd make great use of the pass rail and what we call the shells in that. 

Like the side pieces of the stage that come out into the audience. Right. Okay. So I basically put it into stage, right. With some creative solutions and like pitched it to her, like I brought it to her house and was like, oh my gosh, to her apartment. And I was like, okay, here's what I'm thinking. You'll have this person here and like this moment that we're used to seeing that'll be here. 

And these people, you know, I don't know how much of it she really followed, but she was like, if you have a plan, great. So it was a lot of that. So that part felt creative. What is stage, right? So it's a software a. Yeah, it's a software program. You can use it on your computer or on your iPad. So you create maps of the stage of where everyone is in space. 

At all times. Cool. Essentially. Wow. And you know, there's dance numbers at the front of the stage. You can input the dimensions of your stage mm-hmm. Into the program. Very cool. It's to scale, essentially. Yeah. I mean, it's time consuming. It can be very tedious. Yeah. It's such an amazing tool, I guess. I've always used used Stage Wright, but usually someone else on the team had made it and I was like, yeah, doing everything on paper. 

So it did take a minute for me to learn faster, more efficient ways to use it on this project. But I will say after tech was over and we had set the show, Going back into that program and adjusting for the changes that we had made that is super tedious and does feel right, like clerical work  

[00:37:38] Katie: and it's like worth it in the end because you did all of that, but just building it in there sounds, yes, brutal. 

[00:37:45] Cami: And I mean, whether or not it was in the program, it's super tedious work to like mm-hmm. Document everything in the show because how big is the cast? Uh, good question. There's nine flats as we call them. Which is like male identifying. Okay. Ensemble. We sort of try to stay out of gender, so we do flats, right. 

And heels. So there's nine flats, six heels in the ensemble. Okay. And then four Lady M's as we call them, which are the four people that sing Lady Marmal in the opening. Mm-hmm. And six other principles.  

[00:38:20] Katie: So like 25. Yeah.  

[00:38:22] Cami: Okay. Um, you know, but the set, I mean the whole show is so massive and so tech heavy. And so like when I first saw it, I told Sonia it was like a feast for the senses. 

It's like all of your senses are overwhelmed. Yeah. It's  

[00:38:35] Katie: really intricate. A lot of information to keep track of. Yes. And what does your life look like now? So your associate choreographer is the title. And what does that look  

[00:38:46] Cami: like? Yeah, I mean it definitely looks different on different shows for different people. 

Last year it mostly meant that I was working on the tour. 'cause we have a resident choreographer on Broadway, Nancy, who's like very, very capable and takes care of that company essentially on her own. And then just uses me if like she's outta town for a few days or needs like an extra set  

[00:39:06] Katie: of hands. So are you required to know Broadway as well? 

I mean,  

[00:39:10] Cami: I know it well enough. Where like if I have to come in and help, I've got their charts, their stage right charts, and I've got videos Got it. Where like I can ask some follow up questions and be like, Hey, is this said or is this, you know, whatever. Cool. And I learned that version of the show first. 

So like there's some of it in there. It's definitely not something I can pull out. Off the top of my head anymore. Right. And I, they need me over there less and less, which is fine. So I had been working on the tour and then last year I went to Germany in August to set the German production. Wow. Myself and the UK resident from the West End together taught the dancing in the show and with our. 

Our German associate, this woman Julie, who's super badass and amazing. Mm-hmm. So the three of us really taught the whole show set. The whole show tech, like, you know, I was there for tech previews all the way through opening. It was three months of time in Germany. Did you come back at all? No. It was hard. 

It was very hard to be away for that long. It was hard. Harder than I anticipated to be in a place where I don't speak the language for that long. Mm. I mean, German is a hard language. I thought I would be able to pick up at least a little bit. Yeah. And I picked up very little. Oh wow. And I could order my coffee and this like granola place that I liked. 

Yeah. To eat, to like grab lunch from or whatever. I could order my order there, but it was just because I learned how to say everything I needed. Before they asked me, so I'd be like, I want this kind, this size with blueberries, and that's it. This is  

[00:40:43] Katie: also after you had taken this job because you wanted. 

More work-life balance, but then of course you find yourself away from home for three months.  

[00:40:51] Cami: Yes. Right. But part of what was exciting about this job was the aspect of the travel. Okay, cool, cool. And was part of why I was hired. Yeah. But like knowing that New York got to be home base. Yeah. But I definitely am traveling a ton and more than I had expected. 

Mm-hmm. So I set Germany and then came home and basically since the beginning of this year, we've just kind of been in this nonstop turnover of cast members on the road. Oh, wow. I rehearsed them in New York, which is helpful. Nice. For a couple reasons. It's helpful because I get to be here. It's also helpful because. 

We don't have a resident choreographer on the road, and so mm-hmm. If we send somebody out to the road without any information, the dance captains have to teach them everything along with being in the show pretty often, scheduling everything out there, too much, it's too much, and oftentimes, It really depends city to city, but there's not always great rehearsal spaces. 

Most of the time it's easier if I just teach them out here in New York. Cool. And then we send them to the road and I come out at some point to help stage, stage rehearsals or watching the put in or both, or whatever it is. So that's like the bulk of my work on the ground is like teaching the show, casting the show, and then flying out to the tour in theory, once a month. 

It's definitely been more than that. This year I have also started taking on some more like global responsibilities, kind of like what my initial initial job offer had been. Okay. I went to London just to see the show, check on the show, say hi. Mm-hmm. Which was really fun. I hadn't seen that production. 

The theater there is really small. It's like this really beautiful but tiny West End theater. Oh wow. I went there for like five days and had a blast, and then I just got home from being in Australia for three weeks, so the Australian team of associates set up the Asian productions. Wow.  

[00:42:40] Katie: How many productions are there right now? 

[00:42:42] Cami: Currently running, there's Broadway, the US Tour, uk, Germany, and Australia. Korea opened right after Germany last year. They do a slightly different situation where they do like just six or 10 weeks, then they close it and then they'll reopen it again like next year. Oh, in a new season. Okay. So instead of an open-ended long running show mm-hmm. 

They'll kind of. Bring it in and out, I guess. Yeah. And now they're doing that in Japan. So there had been Korea, which would be six, but they closed. And now Japan I believe, is about to open. Wow. And that will also just happen for like six weeks or so, and then they'll close it and bring it back. The associate and resident choreographer were in Japan. 

Okay. And in Brisbane where the show is currently in Australia, they were replacing five or six people and just like, it's too much work for the dance captains on the road. It felt like too much work for those. Dance captains in Australia. Yeah. To be doing that and going on all the time. Right. So they brought me out for just three weeks to kind of cover the gap, which was really fun. 

So this is like  

[00:43:47] Katie: a salaried position, correct? Correct. And then how far in advance do you know your schedule?  

[00:43:53] Cami: Great question. Most of the time at this point with the tour visits, I try to schedule them a couple months in advance, so I look at the calendar and kind of go, here's when I think I'll need to be there. 

Here's when, like about once a month, you know, I'll come around these times it always changes based on something like, yeah. Does Sonya wanna come visit? Okay, then I'll go When she wants to go. Oh, we now have to put in a new replacement. Okay. So instead of coming the week of, you know, March 12th, I'll come a week later because that's when they're put in will be. 

Or like I try to, to schedule that a few months out. It very often wiggles around a little bit. Yeah. London, I had. Not a lot of notice. It was like a month. Okay. And then with Australia and London, the conversation happened around the same time, which was in March. So Australia I knew pretty far in advance. 

Germany, I knew like a whole year in advance. Okay.  

[00:44:46] Katie: So you're able to have understanding of your schedule and ability to plan ahead for non-work things. Yeah.  

[00:44:54] Cami: I would say it sort of depends on how you wanna define it. Because I think last year I felt eaten alive by sort of the always on call nature of the job, right? 

Where like I'm paid a salary and that salary sort of means that like at a moment's notice, they can ask me Yeah.  

[00:45:13] Katie: To do something, to fly somewhere else  

[00:45:15] Cami: and yeah. Yeah. And it's only happened once or twice where they've been like, we need you on a plane. Tomorrow Uhhuh. It's actually only happened once where it was like tomorrow and it's 'cause both of the dance captains got covid. 

Oh no. Yeah. Oh goodness. I just was struggling because some of the job is being at home. You know, yesterday I had casting all day. Today I'm just at home on my computer mostly doing emails and like working on schedules for some replacement rehearsals. We'll have next month. Mm-hmm. So it's like a lighter day, but I was just having a hard time compartmentalizing that, not letting it sort of take over my time, not always being on my phone, you know, all that kind of stuff. 

Yeah. And so I think this year I feel like for myself, I have found a much better balance of how to manage that and sort of schedule my life around  

[00:46:01] Katie: that. And what did you do to, to achieve that?  

[00:46:05] Cami: Yeah, I think some of it was, Remembering that like not everything is like a five alarm fire. Sure. It's just easy for everything to feel like an emergency. 

Yeah. And remembering that it's not. And the second thing was for me, if I am doing anything related to work past like 9:00 PM I can't fall asleep. Like my brain just starts moving in a way that I can't. I have a really hard time not imagining conversations in my head or writing an email that I need to write in my head that I know I'm gonna write tomorrow or like whatever. 

Really good to know about yourself. Yeah. So when I can, I really try and unplug or like not use my computer past like eight or 9:00 PM mm-hmm. Or if I'm in like full rehearsal days, which happens a lot, like a 10 to six day, unless it's an emergency, like, and I'm checking my email like, you know, we're all on our phones all day. 

Sure. So like, it's not that I'm ignoring it. Yeah. But I kind of just go like that can wait until tomorrow. Yeah. Like during office hours basically, like, or during business time. Right. Or if it's not, then I can respond to it. But sort of like stopping and pausing and going, prioritizing. Does this need an answer now? 

Yeah. Yeah. And it's not like, oh, I'm not answering my phone past eight o'clock. Like it's just not a reality of working in theater. Yeah. But letting that happen less or not getting sucked into that so much. Mm-hmm. I think has really helped. I think what's hard is like we have a dog, we have an apartment, and I'm not home very much. 

I think that's where, I don't know that I've found the balance. I don't know that we're. In a balanced place. Sure. You know, and sort of trying to figure out what that is and how it works. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that we can have time together or so that I can make time for my friends or whatever it is, you know? 

Right. I think this year with this much travel has definitely been a, an eye-opening experience of just sort of how to survive. I think what I'm most proud of is like, like last year I burnt out several times. Like I just got to a point of like full burnout and this year, I've gotten close. Yeah. But I don't feel like I've hit that. 

That's good. That threshold. Yeah. Yeah. Um, of like total burnout, which I Good. Shouldn't really be the bar  

[00:48:18] Katie: learn like, well, you have such a big job. It's a very, yeah. Very cool what you're doing, but that's a huge responsibility. Yeah. Do you miss performing? I  

[00:48:28] Cami: not that often. Every once in a while. Sure. I'm like becoming more and more comfortable with saying that I might be done performing. 

Yeah.  

[00:48:37] Katie: You don't need to say that though, like, Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:48:39] Cami: Probably never done. I wasn't ready to even mm-hmm. Think about it. Mm-hmm. Sure. But I think, like, here's what I'll say, I really enjoyed this job. I've enjoyed the work, the momentum that I've created in this space. Mm-hmm. And so it would take a lot for me to like redirect back to being on stage. 

Yeah. In a show. You know, it's like, this is the catch 22, right. Is like, I didn't wanna do an eight show week anymore because I didn't wanna be tied to the job. Right. But I do, I am tied to my job in a different way with this. Yeah. But what's nice about this job is if I'm not out of town, I can like go to dinner on a Tuesday night with a friend. 

Yeah. Or on like Christmas, like I don't have to be at the theater or like, oh goodness. Necessarily about, you know, I might not be able to go far. Right. But I can, I don't have to be at the theater at two o'clock on Christmas Eve necessarily,  

[00:49:32] Katie: because they're not gonna have rehearsals on days like that. But you still watch a number of performances, I imagine, right? 

[00:49:38] Cami: Yeah. I mean, that's why I'm going, that's part of why I go see the tour once a month is like to watch and give notes and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.  

[00:49:45] Katie: And you can do that on a Wednesday and not on like a Friday and Saturday. So you have like a slightly better schedule in terms of  

[00:49:51] Cami: Totally. Weekends. Yeah. 

Or whatever. Is important, you know, like, yeah, it depends on how you look at it, but I feel like I have more life autonomy in this job. Yeah, that's great. Than being in the show. And so I, despite how much I'm traveling, how much I'm out of town, and that feeling like I don't always have a say in what that is. 

I do feel like it would take a lot to go back to a schedule where I was on stage or had to be at the theater every single day. Right.  

[00:50:22] Katie: You know, well, I really admire you. I just, you have this confidence and this incredible journey. I'm sure it's mostly your hard work and your ability to just be a great human being to everyone. 

I think that's gotten you so far. Thank you. And it's just very admirable and congratulations. Oh, thank you. Thanks. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I feel like I have so many more questions for you, but maybe I'll have to have back  

[00:50:49] Cami: on the show. Yes. Totally. Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's been fun. It's so  

[00:50:56] Katie: great to talk to you. 

You too. All right,  

[00:50:58] Cami: well good luck with I you soon. Okay,  

[00:51:01] Katie: thanks.  

[00:51:02] Cami: Bye bye. 

[00:51:13] Katie: Thank you for joining us today, and until next  time,  go audition for  something.