How to Define Success, and the Top 3 Mistakes Artists Make when Building Their Career with Michelle Markwart Deveaux.

Michelle Markwart Deveaux is the CEO of FaithCultureKiss Voice Studios and Founder of The Speakeasy Cooperative. When she's not teaching singers, actors, podcasters, and influencers to use their voice to change the world, Michelle revels in the nitty-gritty of entrepreneurship, business shenanigans, and personal development. She and Katie met 15 years ago when the did Breaking Up Is Hard to Do, the Neil Sedaka revue, where they became instant friends. The conversation you'll hear had a huge impact on Katie as an artist, causing her to really think about what success means to her, and to rethink how she goes about moving forward in her career. 

Find Michelle
on IG @thespeakeasycooperative
www.thespeakeasycooperative.com

Theme Music Composed by Rachel Dean and Orchestrated by Katie Coleman

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Transcript

Hello and welcome to How to Succeed in Theater by Sacrificing Everything. I'm your host, Katie Coleman. All sacrifices discussed in this podcast were fully consensual and a hundred percent worth it because we love what we do, right guys. Right. 

Hi everyone. I am very excited to bring you today's interview with a dear friend of mine, Michelle Marwar Devoe. Michelle and I met 15 years ago when we did a show together in California. The show was breaking up as hard to do the Neil Akaka review. It was a ton of fun and we were instant friends, and in the last 15 years, she has gone on to not only start a family, but also to Uplevel and expand her own voice studio and to start the speakeasy cooperative, which she will tell you more about. 

The conversation she and I had, which you're about to hear, had a huge impact on me as an artist. It caused me to really think about what success means to me and to rethink how I go about moving forward with my career. I really hope you enjoy what she has to say. Here we go. Thank you for being here. You are welcome. 

I was checking out your website, the speakeasy cooperative.com, and it's so fun like thank you. It's beautiful. Thank you. Tell us about the speakeasy Cooperative. Oh my goodness. Well, the Speakeasy Cooperative is kind of a, uh, baseline community offer that is part of the business coaching world for artists, mostly focused on performing artists. 

Then niche down to singers and people that work with voices, but also we have pianists, we have body workers, we have, uh, performance coaches. We even have some web designers that work with our, you know, work with this kind of population. And what it is, is it's a monthly subscription membership to, uh, library of training resources and continuing education and community where artists can. 

Hone their business skills and learn to think like business owners within the artistic community so that they can make money, pay their bills, have the sustainable lifestyle, and. Overall, the big goal of mine is that we break some toxic beliefs and behaviors around scarcity mindset, and I have a big life goal that in two to three generations, we will have a big enough impact. 

That scarcity mindset is something that we laugh at and something that we said, oh, remember when everybody was like just taking gigs for pennies and remember when no one was paying rates and oh my gosh, you know, when back in my day, like that's my goal for the industry. Wow. That's, that's amazing. So there's not really any specific, like you can just be anyone to join. 

You can, yeah. It, well, it started out me just helping other voice teachers, right? Because that was what, where I thought the need ended because I had, uh, a gross underestimation of how. Ill equipped artists were in general to Yes. Think about money and to think about business and to think about marketing. 

And I also had a really, um, I had underestimated the amount of money trauma. Oh, wow. Yes. And the amount of, um, rejection trauma that. Was present in the performing arts. Like I knew it was there because like, duh, of course, right? Of course. But to watch it manifest in my early in like the first year when I started to watch it manifest in how decision making was made, how self-sabotaging it was, because doing something like raising the rate by $5 was. 

Extremely triggering. Yeah. And dysregulating, I have all these business skills, but that's when I realized I need to gain some like real solid life coaching and trauma skills. Yeah. Um, in addition to the business consulting aspect. People buy in for a monthly subscription and then they have access to a team of coaches that I vet to help them in different aspects of business. 

Wow. Um, from there, if people want, and then a complete library of trainings, we do Zoom events. Three to five a month where you can show up in real time or you can watch. On the flip side, we have a live event. This is truly incredible and what a gift that you are providing. Yeah. I'm just so proud of what you've built. 

Oh, thank you. We've come so far, Katie. I know. Oh my gosh. Yeah, we have, we both have. That's true. Yeah. Amazing. I have like, A hundred questions now based on what you just explained, but I remember two of them. So yes, the other day we were talking about success. This podcast is focusing on how to succeed in theater and. 

You had this really interesting perspective about like what success means and how we measure it and how someone might seem to be successful in, in these massive ways, but then totally not have their life together and others, and I'm curious to hear more about your perspective there. Thanks for asking. 

Um, this is something I'm so passionate about that it's literally like this free e-course that I give people when they sign up for my newsletter because I'm like, please learn how to define success for yourself. You know, success is something that I think people in the arts and performing arts theater, they very much look at external indicators. 

Yeah. And they say, If I look like that, if I'm doing that thing, if I have what I perceive that other person has, I will be successful without actually having any sort of internal check about their core values, what's important to them, and, um, what they would consider measures of success out like in their own world. 

In their own world. Wow. That, that's kind of mind blowing, just. To even think about success in your to yourself. Right, and not to everyone else. Exactly. Which is why it's kind of ironic, because the only person that can determine if you are successful or not is you. Yeah, absolutely. Like another person is just making an assumption based on what they see. 

Which is very, very, very little of who you actually are. Right? Right. Wow. So, um, I like people to be able to define what do you think success is for you? Right. And usually when we come to the question, it's. What do you think success is? Question mark. And then all of the answers are like, well, it's having money, or it's having prestige, or it's having fame. 

And I'm like, okay, great. So how much money? And they're right. What are you gonna do with it? I don't know. And what are you doing with that money? Mm-hmm. What impact are you bringing to the world with that money? What impact are you bringing to yourself with that money? Oh my gosh, this, even just you talking about this like makes me feel emotional because it's hard to even allow myself to think about doing something with my money. 

That's not like I. Holding it as tightly as I possibly can. Yeah. Like for example, giving it away. Yeah. To a charity or to something that I believe in. Like to be at that point financially where I could do that and to even think, oh, what do I want to do with this money? Like, I can actually do good things with money. 

Yeah. 'cause I feel like I, I don't even know when I would be there. 'cause I've never allowed myself to think about having that much money. Yeah. And. I think that that is indicative of like this scarcity mindset is scarcity is a real economic concept by the way. Like that's a real thing in textbooks and it does exist, right? 

It's why supply and demand is a thing. It's why toilet paper in the pandemic, right? So like that's a real thing, right? But to believe that there will never be more coming. Yeah, and then to, like you said, kind of hoard energetically and hoard financially out of fear. Right, and then make those decisions based on that fear isn't is indicative of our bodies. 

I mean, 'cause it you, I'm assuming you're feeling it in your body. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Right. That's where I first felt it when you were saying that. I'm like, oh gosh. Oh, emotions. That's feeling. Those are feelings. Yeah. Those are in my body. Yeah. And that is a little bit of an indicator. You should put a content warning on this podcast. 

Seriously. A trigger warning. Yeah. I'm not, I'm actually not kidding. It's true. Yeah. You might wanna consider it. Yeah. Um, those, you know, that is your body trying to tell you danger, danger, danger. Gosh. But the reality is, is that once someone has a better understanding of how money just works as a tool. 

Once they have a better understanding about how to negotiate with money, about how to budget money, how to view money as flow. It has to go out in order for it to come in, right? It has to, you have to spend money in order to bring in money, and I don't mean that, I don't only mean that in terms of like spend money on yourself and your business. 

I mean like, sure, you need to go out to eat and you need to pay your groceries and you need to pay your rent because that creates space for you to. Dig into your creative self to create more of that resource. Hmm. Right. That makes sense. But if you're not, if there's not a neutral relationship with that, and money has built up a resentful relationship with you because. 

You know, you're not getting paid enough for a gig. You have crossed your own boundary by saying yes to a $50 gig that we all know should be a $500 gig. Right. So now you have internal resentments that you need to forgive yourself for. Yeah. So it's a way bigger conversation. So, and that's just one tiny part of success. 

Right. Katie, so your original question was, what about success? Yeah. How about success for me is that I can pay all of my bills doing something that I love most of the time, and I feel like what I'm doing is bringing impact. I. Yes. And impact to me means I'm in person or I'm online face-to-face and I see faces light up. 

Yeah. Impact means I ask for feedback and say, how was our session today? How, how was practice today? And that person says, oh, I love working with you. That was so great. I feel so magical. Yeah, right. Oh, that's incredible. Yeah. What is success? Because ultimately once you figure that out, then you can say, I, then you work on the skill of saying, I can attain that. 

I'm worthy of attaining that. When you put it that way, it was simple. It's like, oh yeah, of course. That's what success is like. I can understand that, and that seems manageable. Yeah, and some people's, their version of success, I think what happens is people leap into, I'm gonna be on Broadway. Sure. Right. 

I'm gonna play a Broadway show, and I'm like, that's fantastic. However, that is very outcome oriented. Yeah. So what happens if that outcome doesn't happen? Are you just gonna be perpetually unsuccessful? I. Sure. Right. And how is that gonna impact your mental health? If your mental health is impacted, how is that going to impact your physical health, your Maslow's needs, and your financial health? 

Like it's all interconnected. Well, the other thing that's really interesting is that a lot of people who make it on Broadway, They, most of their career, they're not actually on Broadway, right? Like someone may be in a Broadway show and in they're, when they're 25 and have made it that far, and then it closes, you know, if they're lucky 10 years later, but more likely two years later. 

And then, then what? Right. That's such a great example too, and this is why I really want people to dig into this idea of success because it also shows that there's a gross misunderstanding of how this actually works. You know? Yes. Go on. If I can just make it to Broadway and I'm like, great. Okay. And then like, okay, great. 

You made it to Broadway. What's the next gig? 'cause that's not guaranteed. I would've been thinking about scarcity mindset a lot when it comes to Broadway because. Literally being on Broadway is the definition of scarce. Exactly. There are not that many, like for me too, if I'm like, oh, I wanna be a music director on Broadway, there's, okay, there's, there's 20 music directors on Broadway right now out of like the 6 billion people on this planet or whatever. 

And then also like only two are female. Hello. So you know that yep. If I want one of the jobs that only three people in the world have that like, that is logistically it is scarce. Yeah. And I think I, I love that you brought this up because this is such an important thing that. To work through is like, there's a difference between legitimate scarcity supply and demand, and all of your decisions being made around the fact. 

That you believe that that legitimate supply and demand issue is somehow holding you back from a level of internal peace, happiness, and financial stability. Okay? Yes. Yes. If that's a goal, that is fine. Also balanced with what am I gonna do in the meantime, right? And how am I going to feel successful? Be successful in all of the ways that I desire to be, because I've defined it now while I'm pursuing that goal, knowing that that goal is a long shot simply because of scarcity. 

That, and it doesn't even, I mean, it's funny 'cause when I work with singers and they're like, oh, okay. And they still think auditioning is about talent. You know, and I'm like, do you understand that once you get into the large market like New York, it like literally has nothing to do with your talent anymore. 

Like everyone's talented once you're there. Everyone is an 11. Yeah, everyone is an 11. Yeah. Good luck. You know it's scarcity because how many actors and performers are in New York? Then how many roles are there to be had? Oh my goodness. I, I think, you know, the, the performing arts in general really does a disservice in the way that they educate people. 

Yes. Yeah. There's a huge, huge hole. Do you think that other industries educate people better? I think service-based industry in general sucks at. Teaching service-based industry, how to run business. Okay. Um, so any service-based industry therapists, um, sure. Academia, maybe some sort of ministry pastoring, religious stuff. 

Mm-hmm. You know, anything that's service-based. I think there's a huge business, not even just business, but there's a huge financial gap. I studied music business. That's what my degree is in, is music management, but it was within a conservatory of music, so it was very music focused. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But then the business side of that was like an economics class and a management class and a entertainment law class. 

But nobody taught me how. As an artist to have my own business. I mean, you're probably the person that taught me how to do that more than anyone else. Oh, and yeah, certainly. So even when I'm studying music business, no one is teaching me about that. Yeah. Hence why I started my business. Yes. And how did you learn, like on your own? 

Well, we actually met around the time where I started to realize like, oh my gosh, people don't know this. Yeah. I feel like you read a book that was very inspiring to you about pricing. Yeah, so I've owned a voice studio since I was like 16. Don't laugh. I. That's amazing. That's what I wanted to do. I knew, I knew, I mean, the other voice teachers in town did not like that. 

They're like, who's this girl? But who's this? And, and I really, I had very little business doing that. I was a great coach. Sure. At that time. Performance coach, that's important. Definitely. But I had a long way to go in, insert in, in terms of technical skill, which. I, thankfully not now. Yes. But you do around teaching at least. 

Yeah, so basically what happened is, is I was in Silicon Valley. Yes. My husband and I, and I was working with a population of singers who were obviously very eager. Mm-hmm. But did not understand the amount of commitment that it takes to really be where they were claiming they wanted to be. Right. And it, you know, Silicon Valley. 

I don't know if anyone else out there listening is from that area. I'm, I am it it? You're now born and raised. Yeah. There's a lot of get As for people who have such wealth, there is a lot of, you are a. Service provider to me, not a professional who is upskilling me and or my child. Oh wow. Interesting. So it very much felt like I was at the beck and call of the client, rather than them treating me like, I'm literally going to give you your child. 

'cause at the time I was working with, um, teenagers, mostly I'm going to give your child the ability to get into a top 10 musical theater program. Right. Which is what they're saying they want. You're saying you want to support them, and I'd always had a successful business because I was decent at like marketing and just, and I was very good at being relational and, and very transparent in my sales process, but I really started to consider, huh, value. 

Yeah. And, and I read a book about value-based pricing. Yes. And I said, I'm gonna do this in my voice studio. Yeah. You knew that you had to change 'cause they were not going to, so you had to change something about your model the way that you were presenting yourself, which is hard to. To first know and then to do, but you did it. 

Thank you. I did. I it was so long ago. Thank you for reminding me. I, I, it was really hard at the time and I, and it took me a, a while to like figure out how do I translate value in something that is so traditionally looked at as time for money. Right. Right. Yeah. Um, And the book, by the way, is breaking the time barrier. 

You can actually Google it and get it for free in A P D F. I love that. And so it took me a while to figure out how to do value-based pricing for voice studios and for myself and, um, But when I did, I was like, wow, I'm gonna have to like triple my rates. Oh my goodness. And that took a hot minute to regulate around. 

Yeah. And then I decided, I, I said, who are the clients that I want to serve the most? Who are the people that I wake up in the morning and think, oh, I gotta get this song for this person. Or, oh, I gotta remember to email so and so about this student. Yeah. Or. Like, who do I get excited about serving? And I pulled those particular clients in. 

It wasn't like the best singers. Oh no. So what were those students like? Hungry. Mm-hmm. Respectful of the process. Cool. Willing to be vulnerable. Yeah. Um. We laughed together. Yeah. So it was like both a personal rapport between the two of you as well as like a, a goal mindset, growth mindset that they had. 

Yeah, and also, and also a level, I felt a level of skill and or perseverance that could actually achieve the goal. Mm-hmm. Sure. Like, like a level of grit. Yeah, because believe me, there were plenty of talented, I mean you were there. Yep. We, we worked with many of the same people, so plenty of talent. Mm-hmm. 

But very little grit. And the students that I was like, you know what, this is a person that I can really. Help shape. Mm-hmm. If they would have me, if that would feel comfortable for them. And so I invited them into this new model. Wow. And almost all of them was like, this is amazing. I have never heard of this before. 

This is incredible. Oh, I can't believe you're offering all of this. Take my money. Oh my God, I just got goosebumps hearing you say that. Yeah. That's amazing. It was amazing. And then there were a couple people who were, honestly, they're like, I don't know if we're gonna make this work, but we're gonna try. 

Ugh, that's great. Yeah. And then the results happened and magically the money showed up and was available. Amazing. That's so inspiring. Thanks. I'm long-winded too. Sorry. No, I love that. 

All righty everyone, we are taking a quick break to ask you to support this podcast by telling a friend, giving us a review, and or supporting us on Patreon. The goal of how to succeed in theater by sacrificing everything is to bring you stories about theater people, their lives, their passive sacrifices, failures, and successes, and to learn from their wins and losses to help you find success yourself. 

Please reach out and say hello and send me your questions and thoughts. I want to build a place for everyone to find success and to have fun in this crazy world of theater. Please find us on Instagram and check the show notes here For more information, break a leg. Do we like break a leg? Is that cheesy? 

What would you say are like the top five or maybe three mistakes that artists make or paths that they get wrong when they're starting out? When they're building their business, saying yes to low paying gigs even when they're brand new. Yep. Well, let me, let me qualify. Saying yes to low paying gigs without strategy behind it. 

I think that that could lead somebody astray every time though, because we always think, oh, well, we might meet someone, or we don't know the exposure. That is not strategy. That is a hope. Okay, so what are some strategies. Okay. So to that end, to that end, you and I worked at, at a Place Uhhuh, and I had heard of you. 

Oh, I looked at that call. Mm-hmm. I looked at the. The call. And I was like, who is this Barbara person? Yeah. The director. Yep. And I know this is gonna be a, not a not paid gig 'cause I didn't have my card. Sure. And I'm looking at like, who, what is this theater? What have they done in the past? What size are they? 

Da da da. Oh. They have this youth theater that's attached to it. Oh my goodness. So I'm looking at the whole package and I'm like, I'm, I'm gonna audition for this show. Yeah. Because. Even if I don't get casts in the show, I am gonna meet one director that I know has a high level of reputation and connection in this community. 

Mm-hmm. I'm gonna maybe be able to ask them if they would introduce me to the head of the youth theater. Yeah. Which is what I was also doing. Yeah. I'm probably gonna meet some really cool people and then I am going to see where those, like if there's anyone that I really become a friend with, yeah. Who there can I make connection with? 

But that was very intentional, right? Like I'm going to audition for the show. And then when I got offered the role, I was like, ah, you know, that was like icing on the cake. Yeah. It was like, and then I get to do the show and then through the show I got to become better friends with you. And that was an obvious connection. 

That was gonna be forever. Yeah. But that wasn't, oh, well maybe I'll do the show and maybe I'll meet somebody. Because for me, I had to find success as I know I wanna direct a little bit. Yeah. I know I wanna perform a little bit and I know when I wanna teach a whole lot. I love that. And I wanna make this certain amount of money doing it. 

Yep. Okay, so what's another mistake that artists make? Not having financial literacy. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. That reminded me of another thing that I was thinking about is budgeting. Yeah. How do you make a budget for yourself when your income changes every month? I love this question. It's one of my favorite questions. 

So the way that I approach it with clients is that we have to determine what we want and need first. Ooh. And in the gig economy, and this isn't just performers, by the way, this is like any kind of launch based business or service based business, right? Sure. When you have, um, income that is up and down and inconsistent Yep. 

We tend to be like, well, how much, Ooh, I wonder how much I could maybe make. Mm-hmm. Instead of how much money do I want and need to make, or, I don't know how much money I'm gonna make 'cause I don't know what gigs I'm gonna get exactly. But to that point, if you don't already know how much money you need and want to make right then you don't know which gigs to actively pursue versus which gigs to let fall by the wayside because the return on investment for the amount of work it would take you to get that gig won't actually get you to your revenue goal. 

That should come first. 'cause it's a personal goal of yours to feel successful and also to just live also that also and to eat. Right. So it's okay to have a, a tidy budget that's not extravagant. Of course. Yeah. So you can have like a goal budget, like, okay, I would really feel successful if this is how much I make and I'm going to work towards that. 

But realistically, I have to make this. Yeah, I think so. I call it the break even. Mm-hmm. You know, like, or sometimes I call it the drop dead. It's like, what do you absolutely have to bring in to make sure all of your Maslow's needs are met, your base needs. Right. Yeah. Shelter, food, utilities, paid. Gas in the car, public transportation, whatever. 

Because that's the, essentially, that's the cost of running the business. If you're the business. That's true. That's your overhead. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So what do I need to just keep the lights on, literally. That's a really good way of thinking of it. Like, I can't have this business, I can't have this career if I can't pay those costs. 

Yes. Yeah. So that's kind of a, that's what I mean by financial literacy is just understanding how money is the tool and that if you are a freelance artist, you are the business. I don't mean your identity is wrapped up in the business and like, that's not what I mean. I mean that from a financial perspective, according to the government. 

Mm-hmm. You and your business are one and the same financially, which means that your rent is like you paying for a brick and mortar location for a coffee shop. Yeah. Right? That's true. You know, your food is you paying for the ingredients at a restaurant. Yeah. Your, you, you don't get to, unfortunately, you don't get to expense that on your taxes all the time, but you know, yes. 

But this is, this is just overhead. Of owning you. Yeah. The commodity of what you do in your business. So if you're not, if you can't cover the overhead, you, I'm sorry, this is going to be very direct, but you don't have a business, you are not successful, you should figure it out or you should fold and do something else. 

Oh lordy. Okay. This is why we need the speakeasy cooperative and all that you have to offer. 'cause this stuff is real and it's ingrained in us overwhelmingly. Yeah. You know, to that, to that point, what's the third thing? You know? You're like, what are the three things? Yeah. The mistakes. And it's like, okay, taking underpaying gigs without. 

A mm-hmm. Actual strategy. Yep. Um, number two, just basic financial literacy. And number three, trying to lone wolf it. Oh, okay. You need your community. You need your community, and you cannot do this by yourself. It is impossible because life is impossible to do by yourself. Okay, so who do we need? Well, if you are a business and you were like, just do a thought exercise with me. 

Okay. If you are a business, if you're a corporation, let's say. Mm-hmm. Gas corporation, how would a corporation run? They would have a board of directors. Okay. The board of directors is gonna be people who understand the industry. Mm-hmm. Maybe some of them who innovate in the industry, some of them who have are wiser in the industry. 

You're gonna have people who understand money. You're gonna have people who understand the mission and vision of the corporation. A board is there to be passionate about the company that they're serving. I, yes, I like to call it my Jedi Council. I love that. So who is on your Jedi council? So I have a couple people who have nothing to do with the music industry at all, and our straight up business. 

Okay. And so those are the people who. Can kind of remind me, not everything is about the arts, Michelle. Some of these principles are universal. Right? Absolutely. That's that is comforting to know actually. Oh yeah. Because business is, business is business. And then I have some people who, who I just think are wise. 

Just wisdom people. Yeah. That are able to ground me. And then I have some just people within my industry that we have shared mindset and we can brainstorm together. That sounds great. They're people I trust. Yeah. Cool. Do you personally feel like you are succeeding? I do. Good. I do. You should. That's great. 

I do. I do. I have some goals that. I'm still canoodling on how to execute, like strategize around my big one. Let's just get every artist financial literacy. Yeah. And have them start treating themselves like businesses and what they do, like a business so that their identities are not constantly enmeshed with how much money they make. 

Oh goodness. Yes. Which is a big ask and might not happen in my lifetime, but. We, we move on? Yeah. I do feel really successful. I think sometimes as a parent, I, I do sometimes wonder if my choices to prioritize. My business will have an an overtly negative impact in the long run. Oh man. Now that being said, I have asked my children, would you like me to close this business? 

Be with you more, and they're both like, no, because it's cool. Like they think, like they think it's cool. I own a business, and then 20 years from now you'll be like, well, you told me. I know. I'm like, can we just record this, like video this for future reference? Let's work on your signature because I need it here on the. 

Slide. Right, right. Exactly. But they're great. You know, that's probably somewhere that I'm not sure I would say like, oh, I feel so successful as a parent. I, I would say I feel like I'm succeeding at doing the best I can. Yeah. As a parent, I mean, as a parent, I think that's always what you can only do. Fair, fair. 

I'm sure you're an amazing mom. 

To that end, Katie, like, do you feel successful? Hold please. Future Katie here. I was not expecting Michelle to ask me this question, and you will hear that in my voice after what she had just explained about defining success. My plan was to sit down after our conversation and spend some serious time with myself thinking about what success means to me. 

And not anyone else. Probably something I should have done years ago. A big part of me wanted to edit out my actual response, the one that you're about to hear as I sound all over the place, first of all, but also because it feels raw and vulnerable. However, this is exactly the kind of conversation that I want to have here on this podcast. 

So I kept it in full so you can hear my stumbling in real time. Here it is. Oh man, I, well, it's so interesting to think about that because I have now achieved the goal of playing on Broadway and I did that, which is incredible, and what an opportunity and so much to celebrate. I've checked off one goal, but then that's still not this definition of success that I also have that I maybe haven't thought enough about. 

So, yeah, it's common though, right? It's like if, if it's the, like if, then, yeah. Fallacy, right? If I can just play on Broadway, then I'll be successful. It's like Inigo Montoya, right? I've been in the revenge business so long now I don't know what to do. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's that like stubborn, like, oh, I gotta work, work and work towards this goal. 

And then you achieve it and you're like, okay, but. You know, I'm still living in a one bedroom apartment by myself and like, I, I feel somewhat safe with money, but it feels like a okay, well, right for now. Like that last month was okay and, and next month is, is looking okay and I've got a good amount in savings, but what am I doing? 

Like, what is the long-term plan here? And it always seems to work out and I think I, I trust. Yeah. You know, that it, it will come in and it's kind of always has, but has it at the level that I want. And, you know, I'm 40 years old, like I, when I'm 50, do I still want this? So, and that's okay. Yeah. I think that's okay. 

You know what it, what, when you say that, what it brings up for me that I'd like to share because. Sometimes when I do podcasts like this and interviews, you know, some of the feedback that that the podcaster will get is like, oh, well it's so easy for her. You know, like she's dah, dah. And I think that there's these moments in my life where I had to intentionally say goodbye to certain goals and then go through a process of mourning and grieving that goal. 

Oh, yes, I'm familiar with this. I remember the first, I mean, the first time was when I chose to get married. It was literally move to New York or get married. Oh my goodness. Those were the two choices that I had honed down to because I had decided I was living in LA and I was working kind of lowkey working in, um, film and television. 

And I knew very quickly that I did not want to be on film. Like I did not enjoy acting for film and television, but I very much enjoyed the backend stuff. Yeah. Um, but I really loved performing in theater. I love doing anything in theater. Like, I don't know, give me, you know, yeah. Make me push one button a day. 

I don't. Right. Like, I just love that. But I remember really sitting down and looking at. Where do I wanna be in 30 years? What do I wanna be doing in 30 years on paper? What I wanted to look forward to was, so there was just no way a, a career in New York was gonna get me there. Even though I did believe that I could have had a career in New York. 

Right. And I remember I was sitting outside in this open area at my graduate school and I was looking at the paper and I just cried and cried and cried. Oh, wow. Because I, I mean, you'd think like, oh, I'm so happy I'm gonna get married. Right. It was like, I wasn't, I was like, I am now officially saying goodbye. 

To something that I have wanted for 25 years. And how do you feel about that choice now? Oh my God, so good. Good. So good. I'm glad for you and Paul that you said that. Yeah. So good. Because. I wouldn't be the person I am today getting to do what I am doing now. Right. Because of just the way that life worked out and some of the other experiences I've had and our, you know, the way that marriage grows and changes you. 

Yeah. Or any sort of significant relationship, and it doesn't just have to be marriage, but a committed, significant relationship of some sort will affect you. So, and it's so funny 'cause I think about when I thought about where I wanted to be in 30 years and like I've exceeded that, yes. You know, um, it hasn't been 30 years, but I'm already like, oh, I checked off all those boxes. 

Yeah. Now what do I get to do? Which is great 'cause you always, there's always more and you want to be always growing and building. So, you know, if there's a listener out there, They're kind of having that come to Jesus moment. You're not alone and you're not a failure. You have not failed. You have not given up. 

You have not been not able to cut it. It's none of that. It's you made a decision because you saw. With clarity, what was success for you? What was not success for you? And it's okay to mourn and grieve it and do something else on the, on both sides. On both sides, right, right. And you're getting closer to. 

Actual success. Yeah. When you mourn that, uh, on that note, how can people find you? Oh, well, the best way to do it to kind of engage is Instagram at the Speakeasy Cooperative, or to follow our Facebook page. Oh, we're so old. We have Facebook. That is, that one's kind of tricky because Facebook is a little, is a little wonky. 

So that's faith, culture, kiss. Studios, uh, studio for Voice acting home of the Speakeasy Cooperative. I think it's the speakeasy cooperative I handle. Right. And then, um, please feel free to check out our website. Yes. Send a, send a contact form. Cool. And um, you can email us at hey, at faith culture kiss.com. 

Ooh. Uh, because that's the parent company. Yeah. Because I still also have the voice studio as well. So yeah. And then hit me up. We'll get back to you. Someone on the team will get back to you, A SS a P. Uh, we'd love to have you join us in the speakeasy Cooperative and show, show you around. We're going through some cool little structural changes that are gonna be taking place over the next six months to a year. 

We've got our live event, um, coming up for members. So you do have to be a member to come to the live event, but, uh, it'll be. Worth it. It'll be really fun. Yeah. Our theme for the live event this year is the Multihyphenate Life. Ooh. Which is exactly kind of what you're talking about. Yeah. Which is how do I do all the things? 

Yeah. And not feel bad about it, not feel like, oh, Katie's all scattered. She's doing this and this and this. Right. So our keynote speaker is someone from our team who, uh, Lives a multihyphenate life. They're social media manager. They're a performer, they're a teacher, they're a speaker. Um, they're a writer. 

And, um, we're gonna have a great money panel of all female entrepreneurs just talking about their own journeys with revenue streams and money and financial. Literacy. We also have a session on core values so that people know how, where the through line is, and the through line is always gonna be our core values. 

So yeah. Great. It's gonna be very cool. We're gonna have a great, great, great time. Wow. Oh, I'm so impressed. I'm so happy to have talked to you and to have you in my life. What a blessing. You're a blessing to me, Katie. Thank you so much for even inviting me and seeing that what I do could be valuable for your audience and for you. 

I appreciate you. Yes. I love you. Thank you. You're welcome. Bye bye. 

Thank you so much for joining us today, and until next time, break a leg.